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Transcription

1 Dan: Hi, welcome to the premed podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dan. This is episode 41. We're going to take a listener question here. It's a long that was kind of unique in nature. It's someone that's in the military, just like I was, transitioning out and getting into medical school and not coming from the background where there was a physician in the family or even the kind of resources that are out there now. I'm going to go ahead and just make this response anonymous, I don't know who exactly who this is, but I'm generally going to read sections of this long . Because I think this generally applies to a lot of other people that have gone to college, taken a break, more of a non-traditional path which I tend to cater to in the Medical Mastermind Community. Then I'll explain each section and get to this question and answer session. I figured I would rather do it this way with a podcast, it's been a while since I've done podcasts, and then we're going to reignite this whole thing and I'm back in Facebook and then doing video responses as well. If you ve got questions, go to the Medical Mastermind Community and check that out. The question starts off like this. "Hi, Dr. Dan. I just found the MMC this month." That's the Medical Mastermind Community. "As well as your podcast. I'm thrilled at the wealth of resources available on the site. I'm working my way through your success strategies right now, and I wanted to get your thoughts on some things regarding my situation. I like you were... am in the army and stationed in the States. This is an army bandsman. Someone that's plays in the band, that has two bachelors degrees and a masters degree in music." Essentially she goes on in a longer paragraph to come later, that in the undergraduate work there were some life stressers like her mother having cancer, and she had a GPA in undergrad side of 3.4. But when she went back and got the masters degree in music, the GPA was 4.0. That's a masters degree in music with a 4.0 GPA. She gets into I guess what I'm asking in regards to post-bacc programs those are post bachelors programs that you could go into, such as a masters degree program in maybe biotechnology or something else that kind of get you back into the Science groove if you have a bachelor degree and it's been a while since you've been in school. It also serves as a jump start for you just to get back to practicing some basic Science stuff, especially because you have to go take the MCAT. The question is, first one here, How competitive are the post-bacc programs? pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 1 of 10

2 Keep in mind that universities and institutions create masters degree programs not to be a platform for someone that's been out there working in a field and deciding later in life to go back into medical school. In other words, if you walk in the door, to a post-bacc program that has a masters degree in something, you say, "I just want to come here to this program, only to get this masters degree and do well, and I want to go to medical school." That might not be received very well, they might not like that. For example, I worked... When I didn't get into medical school the first year and was waiting a year to reapply, I worked out at a research facility that offered a masters degree in biotechnology. And I thought that was a pretty good backup if I didn't get into medical school. I had regular hours, it paid okay, I can use a science knowledge, at least it would be in my field. That's what I was thinking, but the people that went to that program, the program directors and such, they're looking for people that are going to stay in that field. In terms of how competitive they are, that depends on where you are, and what kind of program this is hard to answer that generally. I think in general they're not very competitive, they don't pay very much, and you ve got to be someone that's kind of a heavy scientist, that's going to go to this difficult to follow presentations almost every day, at least every week, keeping up with all your science colleagues and outside presenter. Sometimes this are the kind of presentations that you can hardly to sit through, to sit through a post-bacc program conference on someone else s research that you are not as familiar with. It's hard, and they pay you very little. I don't think that they're very desirable from the standpoint of the general market of people that are looking for postbacc programs, as a general rule of thumb. Keep in mind, I would suggest that if you are going to do this, and go get a masters degree before going back into medical school, that you don't necessarily announce to them when you're applying that that's your goal. At least consider the fact that God might have another plan for you, that there may be some other plan that could work out, where medical school is not included in that process. You might decide that you do want to stay in that field that the masters degree program has offered into. I know you enough to say that you're completely dedicated to getting into medical school, and if you're not, I'm trying to help motivate you and not talk you out of it. In general, don't tell them that you're so motivated. I don't think the programs are that competitive, and we'll get on a pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 2 of 10

3 little bit later here and the other questions that she asks to see when a postbaccalaureate program might be appropriate. She says, "I'm listening to your videos and podcast which reference residencies and medical schools, and all the statistics that come along with that. I'm sort of wondering how a post-baccalaureate program fits into that scheme." What we're talking about is, I have presentations inside the Medical Mastermind Community that gives you the attrition rates for every step of the medical education process and I taught that this past May at a grand rounds at my institution. I have not been podcasting much, though I am back, and going to be better than ever. I have been doing research, and we have four papers in the works related to the Medical Mastermind Community research. That will be revealed as it's published in peer-reviewed journals. You're going to not find any other podcaster in the premedical, MCAT space that is evidence-based and actually doing research on premed students. In fact we have ongoing research right now, on premed burnouts. Never been studied before and I have data. So that's pretty cool. So back to this whole attrition rate. What do I mean by that? At every step in the medical education processes, someone graduates one program or applies to the next program, there is a cut-off of people that don't make it. You've heard that the hardest part of medical school was getting in. That's what they tell you until you get in, and then they say the rest of this whole thing is hard. It's just hard in different ways. In terms of general statistics, yes it's true. The largest cut-off of people trying to get into medical school happens right there at that step of trying to get the interview into a medical school. If you look around your undergraduate classroom, and took a show of hands of how many people in your classroom say that they want to become a doctor, they want to be a physician. You count them up, and then you follow them for the next 10 years, that probably 90% of them, unless you're in a premed club at major university, will either change their mind, or quit somewhere in the process or maybe if they do apply once they won't apply again if they don't get in. They're not as committed as you would think. There is actually a large, impossible to count attrition rate that happens right there, and people self-select. Only the strong survive, it's the survival of the fittest from the very beginning. Because people that might get one D in a class, we'll talk themselves out of even becoming a physician. They are weak, stay pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 3 of 10

4 away from them, don't let their minds poison you. I'm very much into success strategies, Napoleon Hills, philosophies and things like this. Personally I'm a Christian, but in some ways more than that I understand the power of belief and surrounding yourself with people that don't rub off on you in a negative way. If you're getting some strange thoughts, some negative thoughts, you ve got to do a careful inventory of who or what you've been spending your time around with. Whether that's television and you need to take an information diet or you have a so-called friend that is discouraging you. I know when I was starting out, my dad actually discouraged me. He said you don't want to do all that. That's too hard, that's too hard to work. In some ways yes, it's very hard work. Let me tell you, nobody can tell you what is in you. Only you know what you're capable of, and there is that little spring of hope eternal way down deep in your heart that kind of tells you, this the plan for me, this is what I'm supposed to do. You need to listen to that, because that still small voice inside of you, that kind of guides you, that's going to turn out to be the most powerful thing that's going to anchor you throughout life. If you fail to do that here, you're going to fail to do it in another aspects of your life. I would encourage you not to ignore that if you have that. There's a cut-off for those that didn't stick to the idea of being premed. Many people would drop out, and never even go through either the MCAT or the application process. I have friends that did both. I had a predental friend who never applied for the predental exam, or for a school. I had a premed buddy, my best friend in college, who took the MCAT with me and then did not even go on to use his number. He talked himself out of it. I didn't know better at that time. I mean everything I teach in the Medical Mastermind Community comes from experience in watching people drop like flies around me, yet I listened to my heart and my core and I was just determine as a former non-commissioned officer, a sergeant in the army, that I was going to adopt and overcome. I was going to help those people that are coming up behind me. That's exactly what I'm doing here, and that's why I can't be silenced. The medical school and premed podcast must go on, and as I m beginning to see the end of my residency in psychiatry come up on the horizon, I'm honestly thinking about what job can I have to continue to pass this knowledge on to you. pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 4 of 10

5 Certainly there's a cut-off to get an interview to medical school, then there's a cut-off to get accepted into medical school, then there's a cut-off for people that don't make it through medical school. Those that do, there's a cut-off of people that don't get a residency program. Of those that do, there's a cut-off of people that don't finish their residency or transfer somewhere else. And then beyond that there is a cut-off of people who either change their mind in their career field, running to whether problems, either with licensing or medical or moral problems. There just continues to be attrition, and once you get your medical license for in state, which I just got mine. You will start getting notifications each month of people that lose their license and the different reasons why. I'm telling you, life is full of attrition. She's wanting to know where does a postbacc program help to serve you in that process. Pretty much, you have to have a bachelor degree to get in to medical school. Some of them will say you need 90 course hours to apply to medical school, but they expect you to have your bachelor degree by the time you start medical school. Let's just keep it simple here, and just say you got to have a bachelor degree. If you have a bachelor degree with a 3.4 like she does, you're really not far behind what the average is for an osteopathic medical school. You're only three or four decimal points behind an allopathic medical school. In other words, a 3.4 GPA is not terrible. Doctors get into medical school every year with a 3.4 GPA. It happens, don't be like my buddy and talk yourself out of plan if that's all you got. I always say, "Hey, if that's what you got, go ahead and apply anyway. Make them tell you no." That's the principle I had back then, when I was getting out the army, and giving up my full-time job, benefits and everything to go live in a dumpy trailer with holes in a roach infestation, eating meals ready to eat, sitting on a floor with my dog, happy to be free in America. Okay, I'm serious, that's how I started. I treated premed like a job, I was very organized, I had a filing system. I had a desk made out of a door nailed to a wall, I mean that's how I started out in life, and now I'm on the upper floor of a large house with a brand new imac I bought on credit to reignite my podcast to help you. I'm leveraging all my experience, my finances, let me tell you, it's cost me a lot. If you join the Medical Mastermind Community, get in one of our conversations. It's not public out there, I'll tell you a whole lot more details of why my podcast pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 5 of 10

6 had to slow down and stop for a while. Let me tell you, people don't want me to tell you the truth about this stuff, and they tried to stop me. My residency program in an agency involved with the whole medical education licensing and application process. I'm not going to name which one on a public podcast. The purpose of a postbaccalaureate program in this entire process, is twofold. Either you have not already proven that you can handle the academic rigor of medical school, and I think she kind of did with the 3.4. But I know that she definitely did with the 4.0 GPA in the masters degree. For you, that wrote me this , I would say from the standpoint of having a 4.0 GPA, having approve your academic rigor to your medical school, it s not necessary to get another masters degree. It's just not, okay? The other big criteria where a post-bacc program can help you is if you've been out of school so long that you really don't remember any of the basic sciences. By the time you go back and get all the undergraduate courses like the Biologies, Chemistries, Physics and whatever else you might need, like Calculus, if you have to go relearn Algebra or something like I did. You know you could look at different programs and say "Hey, can any of this course work be applied toward a master? Probably not. I would say at least a third of the time, I see people going back and getting postbacc programs. It's actually to boost their own self-confidence, not so much to impress the medical school admissions committee. That's just what I've observed. Of course I've interviewed hundreds of people and done personal consultation on people s applications for several years now. I first got interested in this and started podcasting in This Medical Mastermind community was launched in That s several years of experience looking at what people do. My advice there, based on that, is do it if you think you need to. I don't have information based on her to know if she has the undergraduate requirements to get into medical school like the different physics and chemistry classes and such. She goes on to say that she's getting ready to get out of the military next year. That she's been giving this graduate program a lot of consideration, to the point where she decided that if she doesn't get accepted into an active duty program, to the military medical school, she wants to apply some post-bacc programs. So she's looking at either active duty options in medical school, or post-bacc programs. Using the GI Bill to get the ball rolling towards medical school. pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 6 of 10

7 I want to make a comment there. I had the GI Bill and the College Fund. When I got out of active duty to go to school, it gave me the option of being able to live alone, and have my own apartment without having to have a roommate. That was kind of the biggest difference, and that was quite nice, especially being like 27 when I got out, and being independent in use to having my own barracks or house to live independently like that. I did have a weekend job for two, two and a half years. I worked practically every weekend drawing blood and driving all over the state on call, from Friday afternoon until Monday morning at 8. I didn't really have a weekend off for two years, and so I can relate to that. I got a stipend, kind of, with the GI Bill sending me money to live off of each month. The Pell Grant still worked and kicked in initially to cover the most of my tuition at a state-supported university. I highly recommended going state-supported rather than private if it's not too late for you. Same with choosing medical schools. You can go get a big fancy degree you think really matters. It's a lot of egoism by the end of it, and when you have $240,000 worth of debt, and you're putting it on deferment year after year capitulating the interest as a resident. You'll be like my buddy who has the fancy degrees that I work with, and she says I should have went to a statesupported school. Once I... I was in Texas. Once I used up the GI Bill and the College Fund entirely, I was a first year medical student. Then, there's a few states in the country like Illinois, Texas, there's another one. I don't recall off the top of my head that has the Hazelwood Act, that will allow you to get about 1500 contact hours, or a 150 credit hours worth of free tuition at a state-supported school for ongoing work. What this translated to was two and a half years of medical school tuition free for me, so that was a pretty good deal. So she's talking about the GI Bill, those are the kinds of benefits that are out there, and I understand that they're even better now. In fact, you can have post 9-11 GI Bill things transferred from yourself to your family, like your children these days. A lot of benefits there. Go to a local vet center or look up the vet center online if that applies to you. I'm going to skip the paragraph that talks about all the different universities she was talking about and get to this last one that has questions. She says, "What more can I do"... Let me back up, I apologize. She says, "I've been sucking up your material like a sponge and I'm currently working on drafting a personal statement via your step three suggestions." What she means in step three, is if you'll look at the Medical Mastermind Community, you ll wind up getting pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 7 of 10

8 yourself a password there, that I've got success strategies, number one all the way down through step 15 is all content that I created. Step 16 goes on into choosing medical specialties and then job postings, so you can get an idea of what each position... Physician pay rate is because the research shows that people do follow the money, as one specialty increases its reimbursement it goes up, such as GI specialty with colonoscopies, more application go to that. I mean we are so broke. To get this education, you ve got to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars you don't have. It made sense that we're not just money hungry here, we're actually having to pay our own bills, and do the responsible thing for our family and our patients as well by not going in the hole. The last group of questions, she says, "What more can I do, now that I can't change my GPA?" She can't go back, that's the bad thing about undergraduate GPA, you can't change it. She says, I'm already volunteering, and I'm working through your steps to have a stellar personal statement. In fact, just now before I turned on the record button here, I was in the private myblog section of the Medical Mastermind Community. I read her full personal statement, and I had a lot of feedback there for her. That's for members only, it's not like studentdoctor.net, which I highly recommend you got to read what people are saying there, to get some current tips and advice. Just keep in mind that my forum is private and different, for members only that have been exposed to the Mastermind success principles only. Often times they'll comment on each other s essays. Quite a few essays in there that you can look at, that are vetted by me and other doctors and medical students. She says, "Can I shadow MDs without having any experience or university affiliation?" Until about seven or eight years ago, that was a lot more common, it was easier to find doctors to shadow. Of course things getting busier all the time, more importantly the government has cracked down on HIPAA violations in the Health Insurance Portability Act and such that states that you pretty much have to be in some kind of work capacity. I know at our medical school, applicants even have to pay a three they have to sign a three-page document just to give them permission to even tour our mental health floor. It's hard, this day and age, to have a person that's an pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 8 of 10

9 undergraduate or not in medical school already going to a medical school or their local doctor to get permission. My advice would be to go to your local family doctor or to contact the medical school about a pre-entry program. Search around for those, because they're quite popular, and especially if you're looking at those for the medically underserved or for disadvantaged or minority populations. Sometimes it's easier to get into those pre-entry programs. Some of them, of course, you might have to apply and compete on your own merit to get accepted to the medical school, and then you would have the option to do a preentry program right before it actually starts, where they'll do like a half-time medical school schedule for you for a couple of months before medical school actually starts. That can be beneficial, it can also be a little repetitive. Once you ve had the pre-entry program, you turn around and have to study for the same material in the real class. She located someone in her area that she d like to shadow. That's good, be proactive. Is that even something that the post-bacc programs are looking to see? There are some post-bacc programs that are more geared towards premed. They're few and far between. I don't think that they have much of a purpose other than to try to get you into medical school and try to boost minority entrance into medical school, especially in California, I read some research from those groups. They do help, they don't help in turning out graduates of medical school in residency that will in turn go back and serve medically underserved populations. They just help distribute the ethnicities among the medical school class but don't really contribute to increasing access for minorities and other disadvantaged populations. I'm not so sold on the post-bacc programs. This is kind of central to what I try to do in the Medical Mastermind Community. Because I believe that anybody can learn how to do this, that I didn't grow up around people that went to college. I was a sergeant and I learned to take care of people around me. Listen, I believe all of these skills are teachable, I know because I learned, because believe me, I did not have them. When you go and you read about me on my About page, you'll see what I mean. I mean, I was even a dropout in high school, trust me all of these skills from medical school can be learned. You don't have to do a special post-bacc program for that. You just have to know how to write a stellar essay, how to present yourself in an interview. You have to believe in yourself. I'm telling you, the Mastermind success principles matter more here if you got a 4.0 GPA. I think so. pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 9 of 10

10 I would read all of your material and think that you would not have to do a postbacc program if I were you. She goes on to say, "I know I just wrote you a book, but I feel like somehow I'm already late in the game and I really want to put my best foot forward with the couple of months that I have to prepare. I thank you in advance for taking your time to review my situation. Your mentorship means a lot. Sincerely, so-and-so." Thank you very much for that , and that concludes the episode 41 of the premed podcast. I'd encourage you to go thepremedpodcast.com, find us on the Medical Mastermind Community. What I'd like to do is open up more conversation with you, and engage in Facebook, in videos, in podcasts, and e- mails. Wherever you live, whatever is most convenient for you. If you've got a unique situation that's not been covered in a previous podcast, then I would highly recommend that you just shoot me an , or make a video. Go to my video page on YouTube and make a video and just ask me a question. I'll be happy to answer for it. If it's something that's real routine, and I've already kind of answered it in a podcast or a video, please don't be offended, but I might just send you the link if it's already done. I understand that 41 podcasts is a lot to listen to and you might not want to hear all of them. I'll just point you in the right direction if the content s already been made. But if it's not, I'm happy, just like in the case of this , to make you something brand new. I'm your host, Dr. Dan, and Godspeed on your next exam. pmu-episode41-post-bacc-programs Page 10 of 10