Alex Atala. The creative and busy Alex Atala is known, Interview:

Transcription

1 Interview: Alex Atala The creative and busy Alex Atala is known, in Brazil and abroad, for exploring the gastronomic possibilities of national ingredients grounded on traditional ideas and current techniques. Atala began his career at the age of 19, in Belgium, and later set out for new ventures in French and Italian kitchens. In 1994, he returned to São Paulo, and in late 1999 he opened the restaurant D.O.M. Among other prizes, both in 2006 and 2007, the restaurant was listed as one of the 50 best restaurants in the world by Restaurant Magazine. Besides cooking, Atala studies Brazilian gastronomy, having published several texts in which he favors the appreciation of national ingredients in high cuisine. In this interview for Texts from Brazil, the chef comments on his perceptions regarding the formation and current trends of Brazilian cuisine. Flavors from Brazil 131

2 FB: Brazil is an immense country with great cultural diversity; even so, is it possible to say that there is a typical cuisine that identifies it? Alex: I believe it is necessary to differentiate what is regional from what is typical and from what is folkloric. The most representative dish of Brazil, in a broader sense, is maybe the feijoada, which has African as well as native Indian roots. It is present on every Brazilian table; in fact, it is a national dish. You can say that this dish and the caipirinha are folkloric representations of Brazilian culture. There are, on the other hand, typical dishes, typical cuisines. The influence of Portuguese cuisine, for example, can be seen both in Minas Gerais as well as in Florianópolis, which has a more Azorian cuisine and beautiful dishes. The influence of African cuisine can be seen, in general, in the Northeast. The Amazon, for example, has an autochthonous cuisine. I refer not only to the state of Amazonas, but to the whole region with its diversity and microclimates. So, I believe it is important to separate what is folkloric from what is typical, from what is regional. This gives an idea of the richness of our culture: not only of its continental dimension but also of its diversity. FB: The unity of our cuisine, therefore, goes beyond rice and beans? Alex: Our richness is great. I think that rice and beans is the most consumed recipe. I believe, also, that manioc is the central axis of Brazilian cuisine. It appears on the table of the Caboclos as well as on the tables of the well-off. But these are only the basis. Rice and beans do not stand for the whole Brazilian cuisine. FB: Going to a self-service restaurant, something very common in the daily lives of people who work in big cities, and finding rice and beans, sushi, barbecue, pastas, etc., what does it tells us about the Brazilian cuisine? Alex: I think it reflects what Brazil really is: this patchwork of cultures that, in the end, are respected and unified in a singular and positive way. I think it reflects what Brazil really is: this patchwork of cultures that, in the end, are respected and unified in a singular and positive way. FB: If, as expressed in The Physiology of Taste, we are what we eat, can we say that the existence of a Brazilian cuisine is a result of the existence of a Brazilian people itself, despite all its internal diversity? Alex: Let us consider the following: eating habits are a line of study for the human sciences. So, we can undoubtedly say that we are, in fact, what we eat. I do not challenge that. I agree completely with this statement and I think it reinforces everything I have been saying: the strength Brazil has, the openness it has to other cultures, without losing its originality. This reinforces, once more, the cultural prism that we have. 132 Texts from Brazil. Nº 13

3 D.O.M. Restaurant FB: Despite the diversity of cultures that form Brazil, the cuisine, mainly everyday cooking, presents a considerable homogeneity. Therefore, is it right to say that what defines Brazilian cuisine is assimilation, not its origin? Alex: In a certain sense, yes, it is possible to agree with the idea that Brazil supersedes the foreign cultures that came here. There is a customization of foreign culture according to the locality. So, this is one of Brazil s first strengths, by which it shows its potential for a cuisine that is used internationally. FB: If you believe in the existence of a typically Brazilian cuisine, open to other cultures, but without losing its essence, why are you publishing a book to give more publicity to the ingredients, processes and recipes from the Amazon cuisine? Alex: At first, when the Europeans arrived, they had to tropicalize their recipes. Brazil was another reality, a very powerful one. Consequently, in many instances, our culture surpassed the foreign culture, in a general sense. In the case of my work, I wrote the book to promote Brazilian cuisine. Rice and beans, for example, is a typical dish of a young colonized country. Despite the fact that mankind ate even before it learned to communicate or that eating was a vital activity, gastronomy is only 200 years old. Because it is a young country and receives influences from vari- Flavors from Brazil 133

4 In France, a chef is respected because he makes French food for French people who ate French cooking all their lives. It is the quality of his work that gives him this status. In Japan, a sushi man is honored for the same reason. I believe, therefore, that a good Brazilian cook has to show his ability within our culture. ous cultures, Brazil ends up depreciating its rural cooking, the caboclo s cuisine, when the act of eating acquires a certain status. I, personally, cannot find that an egg is less important than a truffle. So, I am a believer in a terroir cuisine, a cuisine of the peasants, a cuisine of Brazilian heritage, because what raised France, Italy, Spain and Japan to higher cuisine standards was the pride in their regional culture, the pride in their peasants, so to speak. In France, a chef is respected because he makes French food for French people who ate French cooking all their lives. It is the quality of his work that gives him this status. In Japan, a sushi man is honored for the same reason. I believe, therefore, that a good Brazilian cook has to show his ability within our culture. The difference between good and exceptional comes with a repertoire. For us Brazilians, it is difficult to judge truffles, caviars and even mushrooms and sophisticated sauces; but, with no doubt, every Brazilian is an expert in rice and beans. FB: When we go to a restaurant, why are we closer to the other side of the Atlantic or even the Pacific than to the central lands of our country? Why is it easier to eat Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, Egyptian and even Javanese food than Manauara food in many capitals of Brazil? Alex: I believe that the new society suggests experimentation. Habits are influenced by this. Moreover, Brazil s identity, a multicultural country, reinforces this. It is interesting to imagine that 20 or 30 years ago Japanese food was disliked and, today, 8 or 10 years old children prefer a sushi bar to McDonald s. This shows that taste can be developed. If exposed to a large variety since one s first infancy, the palate tends to be broader. We are, therefore, privileged in living in a country that has a wealth of ingredients and culture. This acceptance of international cuisine, on the other hand, is explained by the fact that we are a young culture, open to multiple influences. FB: Do you think that this tendency, on the other hand, could be a symptom that our cuisine has no more roots, that it has lost contact with its own soil? Alex: Although regional cooking has lost some of its fire, I think this process is part of a cycle. Today there is a movement today led by people like Paulo Martins, in Belém, or César Santos in Olinda. There are professionals from the en- 134 Texts from Brazil. Nº 13

5 Jaboticaba sorbet. D.O.M. Restaurante tire country, from North to South, who carry the banner of regional cuisines very appropriately. I believe this return to our origins is part of the maturing process of our culture. Unlike me (as I am engaged in high gastronomy), these people defend their regional cuisine, their origins, a stance I consider highly. The most important, without a doubt, is to value Brazilian food. FB: In this context, is it still possible to identify, clearly, the typical regional cuisines? Alex: I believe that there are big intersections. In Minas Gerais, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro there is a common Portuguese trend. So you will sometimes see discussions that I find illogical, as in the case of the difference between the tutu from São Paulo and the tutu from Minas Gerais. They discuss something that is not important if you take into consideration that the biome is the same. Human culture does not respect geographical divisions much, since it is well adapted to the biome. What is important is to know whether it refers to the Atlantic forest, the Cerrado or an Equatorial forest. In regard to the Amazon, there are discussions in relation to the quality of the tucupi of Manaus and the one from Belém; of the assai from Manaus and the one from Belém. One tries to find out if the nuts are from Pará or from Acre. These are discussions that, I believe, lose their legitimacy when one seeks to find a better region Flavors from Brazil 135

6 My relationship with and forgets about the sense of citizenship which begins within the individual and spreads out to the collectivity. nature reveals itself as a strong aspect in my personality; it is a family inheritance. But this is not an exclusive characteristic of mine. If we consider the highest icons of gastronomy, we will see their strong connection with the environment. FB: Regional cuisine comprises not only typical dishes but also typical ingredients. Isn t access to them increasingly difficult, with mass production and consumption? Alex: I believe that in a certain sense, yes. I could not say otherwise. On the other hand, we Brazilians, mainly producers and extractivists, need to improve our relationship with the basic ingredients. Here, fish are mistreated, as well as the greenery gathered in the outskirts of the cities. So, I believe we sin, several times, when regarding the respect to nature, which is so generous and is wasted by farmers and fishermen themselves who make a living out of it. My relationship with nature reveals itself as a strong aspect in my personality; it is a family inheritance. But this is not an exclusive characteristic of mine. If we consider the highest icons of gastronomy, we will see their strong connection with the environment. Let us consider caviar, truffles. One has to go in search of truffles, as well as fish the wild sturgeon to obtain the best caviar. It is incredible how one of the highest levels of human culture is intrinsically related to nature. I also believe that nourishment can be not only a form of preserving the environment, but also an excellent alternative to produce resources for the riverbank populations. It is important to add value to the forest. It needs to be worth more standing up than torn down. FB: In relation to traditional cuisine, statistical data show a decrease in the consumption of beans and rice. What does this mean for our cuisine? Alex: The largest concentration of the population in Brazil is still in the metropolitan areas. This large-scale feeding means, the production of industrialized food, is a great facilitator of everyday life, but very harmful to regional cultures, mainly when we consider the typical dishes of the hinterlands or of smaller cultures limited to micro-regions. Therefore, I believe that the food industry is more harmful than the fast food chains, which are an urban phenomenon. Sausages and other canned goods are, on the other hand, what really reach the most destitute regions. I have a dream. I will not say it is a project but a dream, namely, to improve basic food packages 1, not only basic products, but also the packing itself. It is important to remember that 1 Translator s note: Basic food packages are donations given monthly by the government to poor families. It includes some basic ingredients like rice, beans, sugar, milk, oil, among others. It is also used as an economic index. 136 Texts from Brazil. Nº 13

7 Zucchini Salad. D.O.M. Restaurante to the indigenous, to the riverbank population, to the caboclo, the packaging of fruits is the peel, of fish are the scales, of animals is the skin. They throw the residue back into the environment. It is something inherent to the culture of these populations. However, they are sent basic food packages that are full of plastic and aluminum. When you travel through the Amazon, in extremely remote places, you come across plastic bags and cans. I think this is an aggression that we, city people, commit against the environment, with no knowledge of the extension of the problem. Therefore, I believe that basic foods policies should be revised, not only as to what they include, but also to rethink their packaging, taking into consideration the regions. FB: You have already commented on the foreign influence on Brazilian cuisine. Considering it a two-way exchange, how is the presence of our cuisine on tables abroad? Alex: Our strongest point abroad is to be Brazilian. It is a big difference to be a big chef from Brazil and a big chef from Ecuador or from Venezuela, Gabon or East Timor. We carry a charisma that the country already has, which is something very positive. Flavors from Brazil 137

8 Another strength is the diversity of fruits, which are big stars. When we are abroad and we use these two strengths to show that we are a tropical country rich in flavors, we open doors to show the potential of tapioca, flours, herbs, tubers, heart of palms and all the range of fish and meats. This exuberance affects people. In high gastronomy, according to my experience, something that always inebriates the chefs abroad is the tucupi, as complex as the curry from India. The product is a big presentation of our cuisine, for it is a seasoning and, at the same time, a preservative, versatile not only in flavor but also in application. FB: In regard to its roots, does our cuisine resemble any other or is it unique? Alex: Very unique. There are cuisines in the tropical zone that use the same ingredients: in the Caribbean we find some kind of white carrot or bean; in Asia, in Thailand, coconut milk, coriander, pepper. Although there are many common ingredients among tropical cuisines, I think our way of using them is different. FB: And why aren t we an international power in cuisine? Alex: This is an impediment characteristic of young countries. For Brazil, it is not enough to have good work being done in our cuisine. This is too little. In France, in Italy, in countries of excellence, not just one good chef or one good research, but several were necessary to reaffirm quality. It is a process that is under way in Brazil. FB: Why does high international gastronomy, mainly the French one, have so much prestige in Brazil? Alex: On the one hand, this is a trait from colonial Brazil, it is natural. On the other, the fact that gastronomy in France had a head start in relation to the entire world gives the French leadership in cuisine. So our workforce, above all the younger one, still pays more attention to other cuisines than to ours. But I believe this is a process. We are in a transition phase. In the years to come, big changes can happen in this scenario. FB: Despite the prestige of the international high cuisine, your restaurant, D. O. M., specialized in Brazilian food, was the only Brazilian restaurant to be included in the list of the world s 50 best by the English magazine Restaurant. Which path should be taken to consolidate Brazilian gastronomy? Alex: Gastronomy is the art to lift an ingredient or recipe to its best moment. In Brazil, we have products and recipes that realize gastronomy in its broadest sense. Something that must be said in relation to gastronomy is that it does not have to be restricted to expensive ingredients or difficult procedures. I ll give you an example of what I consider gastronomy. If we go to Bahia, we find ten stalls on the beach. One of them makes fried fish better than the others. This happens due to the adequate accomplishment of a series of steps. Probably, the owner of this stall wakes up early, cleans the fish properly and stores it in a refrigerator. Afterwards, he heats the oil to right temperature, he seasons the fish, fries it during the right amount of time, lays it on a nice plate, accompanied by good ingredients and another person takes that plate from the kitchen to the client s table. Therefore, a dish doesn t start or end in the kitchen. In reality, it starts with the choice of the ingredients 138 Texts from Brazil. Nº 13

9 and ends with an empty plate in front of a satisfied customer. For me, this is gastronomy. It comprises a process with a series of steps that need, in Brazil, to be improved in a general way. FB: Is it necessary to be a good cook before being a chef? Alex: Of course! Let me give you an example. A professor with a doctorate degree in Medicine went to college, had 4 years of residency and then became a doctor. After continuous studies and, more importantly, practice of his profession, he obtained his doctorate and professorship. I believe that, in the kitchen, it is no different: whatever the amount of theory you have, practice will lapidate the techniques. Therefore, I believe that Italian cuisine can be a great lesson for the Brazilian one. Mama cooks very well, but when the Nona cooks, everybody kneels to eat. Italian cuisine is a home cooking. Mama cooks well because she does this everyday, and Nona cooks better because she s been doing this her whole life. This is why Italian cuisine left us a great legacy: our inherited recipes are very good, but what it lacks is this devotion to cuisine, to the selection of products, to the service, to cooking, to everything involved in a good meal. FB: How did your personal experience influence this devotion you have to cooking and your interest in high gastronomy? Alex: Because I was a punk, I submitted myself to washing dishes before I learned to chop. I learned how to wash pots and pans before I learned to cook with them and so on. It was a learning process. I was not born chef Alex Atala, A dish doesn t start or end in the kitchen. In reality, it starts with the choice of the ingredients and ends with an empty plate in front of a satisfied nor did I become what I am from overnight. Because I needed it, I submitted myself to smaller jobs and I fell in love with cooking. So, when I returned to my country, I did not want to be a Brazilian pretending to be French, Italian, Belgian or any other national. I wanted to be Brazilian because I believed in my country and in my culture, in the flavors that I knew since my childhood and which I believed to be as good as the ones I encountered abroad. My past, undoubtedly, helps me today with the work I develop. FB: Can everybody have access to gastronomy? Alex: The example I gave of fried fish in Bahia applies to all circumstances: in the Ver-o-Peso Market, with assai; in São Paulo with pastéis at open markets; in Rio de Janeiro, with the food at bars; in Ceará, with dried meat or caranguejada (crab stew); in Bahia with moqueca (fish stew). Finally, our basic cuisines are famous not because they re attractive but because they re good. It is possible to transform them into high gastronomy. Let us recall that croque-monsieur, crêpe suzette or penne arrabiata are, in reality, cousins of daily recipes. customer. Flavors from Brazil 139