Association of Asia Scholars Oral History Project: China Studies in South Asia

Association of Asia Scholars Oral History Project: China Studies in South Asia Interviewee: Prof. Delwar Hossein; Interviewer: Prof. Sharad K Soni Date: 24 March 2016 at Dhaka University, Dhaka (Bangladesh) Delwar Hossain About the Interviewee: Delwar Hossain, Ph.D. is Professor of International Relations, University of Dhaka (www.du.ac.bd), Bangladesh and concurrently the Director of the East Asia Study Center (www.eascdu.org)), University of Dhaka. Dr. Delwar was the Chair of the Department of International Relations, University of Dhaka during 2009-2012. He is an adjunct faculty and guest speaker to several reputed academic, research and training institutions under the public and private sectors. Delwar teaches course on theories of international relations; globalization issues; foreign policy analysis, East Asian affairs, China Affairs, India Affairs and Japan Affairs. He has been involved with several policy making and recruiting committees at the university and outside. Delwar has worked as a consultant for United Nations Development Program (UNDP), USAID, CIDA and Dutch Embassy. He was a project director to a program on Innovation and Performance based Teaching and Learning in International Relations, funded by the World Bank Higher Education Quality Enhancement Project (HEQEP) and the University Grants Commission of Bangladesh during 2011-2013. He earned his Bachelor of Social Sciences (Hons.) and Master of Social Sciences degrees in International Relations from the University of Dhaka, Bangladesh. He did his second Master s degree in Asia Pacific International Relations from International University of Japan (IUJ), Japan as an Asian Development Bank Scholar in 2001. He earned his Ph.D. in global and intercultural studies from Ferris University in Yokohama, Japan as a Monbukagakusho scholar in 2007. He has widely published in the areas of conflict management, globalization, regionalism, civil society and human security, areas studies with special reference to South Asia, East Asia and Japan. Dr. Delwar authored books on Globalization and New Regionalism in South Asia: Issues and Dynamics (Dhaka, 2010); Partition and Conflict: The Chittagong Hill Tracts, Bangladesh (Sage, India, 2015). Dr. Delwar has contributed chapters in the books entitled: Transitions and Interdependence: India and Its Neighbours (Indian Council of World Affairs, New Delhi, 2015); Bangladesh in International Relations, 2012-2013 (BILIA, Dhaka, 2014); The Plight of the Stateless Rohingyas: Response of the State, Society and International Community (The University Press Limited, Dhaka, 2010); Conflict Management Mechanisms and The Challenges of Peace (Karachi University, 2008). Some his other publications include "Island Char Resources Mobilization (ICRM): Changes of Livelihoods of Vulnerable People in 1

Bangladesh," Social Indicators Research (Springer, ISI cited publication, Rank: Q1), October 2013; The Rise of Civil Society in South Asia: Implications for Regional Cooperation Process, Journal of Asian Profile; Development-Violence Nexus: The Politics of Resistance Movement in Bangladesh, Social Science Review; South Asia-Japan Relations: The Emerging Regional Perspective, BIISS Journal. He also completed research projects on the Rohingya issue, the CHT conflict, and South Asian regional cooperation. Dr. Delwar is actively engaged in teaching, consultancy, research and community services in the University of Dhaka and beyond. Soni: Good Morning. Myself is Sharad Soni. I am a Professor at the School of International Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi (India). We have a project on China Studies in South Asia and in this regard I would like to take your interview. Thank you very much for agreeing to give your interview. First of all please let me know about yourself and about your family background. Hossain: Thank you. I am happy to know you and particularly about your project, it looks very interesting to me, knowing about China from Bangladesh perspective. I am a Professor of International Relations at the Department of IR, University of Dhaka. I come from the eastern part of Bangladesh, Brahmanbaria district bordering Agartala in the north eastern part of India. I studied for my secondary education in my home district and then I came to Dhaka and undertook my intermediate from Dhaka College and graduate degrees from University of Dhaka. I joined as lecturer in the Department of IR, University of Dhaka in 1995. Before that I served in BIISS Bangladesh Institute of International and Strategic Studies as a Research Officer since 1993, so I had 2 years research experience in this premier institute in Bangladesh, BIISS. Then joined the Department and since then I have affiliated as faculty member. As part of my academic background, I went for higher studies to Japan, first time 1999 for my Masters in Asia-Pacific International Relations and then I came back and got Monbukagakusho scholarship to pursue PhD degree and went back to Japan and I was based in Yokohama, studies there for my doctoral program and was affiliated there with Global and Inter Cultural Studies school. I worked on globalisation and new regionalism in South Asia for PhD dissertation. Then I came back from Japan. In fact my exposure to Japan for my higher studies, created an enthusiasm about East Asian affairs. Because when I was doing my masters internship, it was in a very global type of institution which had more than 50% of foreign students and faculty. So I got to know more about Japan, Korea, China and this Asia Pacific region, so I got interested about this region and of course about Japan. So from that time I used to think about East Asian politics and security. Then I resumed my job in Dhaka University and eventually I became Professor. Then I took some initiatives to open a centre to cover East Asia for research and academic purpose. But you know, since I am a faculty member of Dhaka University and Dhaka University has a different type of approach like JNU, we have a Department of International Relations since 1947, so you know it was the first of its kind in South Asia but it remained focused on producing knowledge or issues or theories covering international relations in general. It has limited focus on area studies. So it remains a bit less focused in the department and at some point of time dept introduced some courses on regions like Middle East, South Asia, Europe. But then it continued just as part of a course in Masters programme, so it did not get much attention or focus. What we tried in my department is that we introduced courses on East Asian affairs, China affairs, Japan affairs, Indian affairs. I actively took the role, and our other faculty members agreed so we tried. In December 2013, a new centre was opened of which I am the Founding Director. So academically that is what I have done and also for my research and teaching 2

interest remains with East Asia, and also sometimes with Japan and China. Since the Centre is at the very initial stage, we are trying to create networks, pooling resources, involving more people so that we develop a research agenda and involving Chinese, Japanese diplomats and academics to visit and interact. This kind of activity we are doing right now at the centre. Soni: Is it a full-fledged centre? Hossain: Yes, it is a full-fledged centre, but Dhaka University has a different idea about the centre. Dhaka University doesn t encourage centre to a degree awarding institution. So they actually try to contribute to research and networks. Then we have budgetary constraints at DU. We don t have much budget for research works. UGC doesn t provide much funds to conduct research in a significant way particularly in the fields of social sciences and humanities. It is a very nominal kind of contribution, so that is why University has its constraints. Research that is being done is more by personal initiatives involving different local and international institutions, individuals and doing research. In the recent years, the university has changed its outlook, they are now trying to focus on institutes and centres for promoting research. They are now giving support so that centres can become more active. So, it is a full-fledged centre under the Faculty of Social Sciences, separate from the Dept of IR. But FSS does not directly provide financial or administrative support, centres operate under the university. Soni: Could you please tell us a little bit about your family? Hossain: I am married and have two children. My daughter just appeared in the SSC 10 th grade examination, and my son is a student of 7 th grade. My wife is a judge, who did her Masters from Dhaka University in Law. Now she is posted as Chief Judicial Magistrate in the district of Narsindi. I live at Fuller Road, the University teachers quarters. Soni: I will now move on a more focussed question. Are you associated with China studies also? Do you find interest among the students to study China or any aspect of China? Hossain: Yes. We have a separate course on China affairs. I taught this course once. Very often courses are not distributed according to teachers interest. We do have students who are interested in China affairs. We also have a language institute which is not within the centre but as a separate modern language institute where Chinese language is offered. It is, in fact, a separate department of Chinese language. There are many students who take this language program from our department also. At the moment I have one MPhil student who is doing research on China-India relations. At M.Phil or masters level, for choosing research topics we find a number of students who are interested in China studies. I should also make it clear to you that in our department or university, with regard to the Chinese studies or Japanese studies we focus more on political or economic security dimensions and less on cultural aspects. So from that point of view, we call it affairs ; China affairs, not China studies. So we can focus more on political, social, and security phenomena which are very important for China s foreign policy. Our Centre has country focus on Japan, China and Korea, although we don t have full courses. We received a delegation from China two months ago who visited our centre. They were interested about this new policy which is regarding maritime silk route, they call it One road, one belt policy. We are working on this because one of the faculty members in our department (they are volunteer 3

researchers) is assigned by me to work on this particular issue. We are going to publish it as a monograph in coming days. The Chinese embassy officials also visit particularly those who are working in the cultural and political sections as they have relations with Dhaka University. The come to Dhaka University and visit Dept. of Chinese language and also our centre. We are trying to promote Chinese studies in Bangladesh as part of larger East Asian studies. Soni: So in a way you mean to say that China studies or China affairs, as you said, is in the nascent stage in Bangladesh? Hossain: Yes, you are right. Soni: Okay, then what do you think should be done to develop China studies in Bangladesh? DH: First of all, I think we need more of a full-fledged research programme on China because of two different historical reasons. I mean in Bangladesh during 1971-1975 China was mostly known due to its opposition to our Liberation War. On the other hand, in the post-1975 era China established diplomatic relations with Bangladesh and became very friendly with Bangladesh and that also made China popularly known. But when it matters for research for knowing China more comprehensively, then we have serious shortage of academic programs on China. We don t have any separate academic program on China which may deal with political, economic and cultural matters. What we offer in my department or other departments, it is only a coursework that a student can do on China. I think we need to create opportunities for academic program on China and also for research on China, in particular what changes we see in Chinese foreign policy and Chinese development discourse. People know very little on this for which we need to create a resource base; resource base in the sense that people can know more about China through internet. For example, I am trying to use online resource particularly website. We have opened a website for the centre; I am thinking of having a separate section on the centre website with information on what is happening in China. Online resources can be very helpful, if we can provide information through website based on systematic research or systematic study that might help. Otherwise we know people have information, we know it is the Age of Information, people have internet access. But these information are not always correct, they don t give the right perspective. If we have an online resource maintained by a particular organisation, for example our centre, or any other organisation, that can help. But at this moment we do not have any such kind of resource in Bangladesh. There is hardly any conference on Chinese affairs or Chinese studies or Chinese foreign policy. People do a very limited research on China in Bangladesh. Think-tanks in Bangladesh have also a very limited focus on research Chinese studies except periodic writing on China for a conference at home or abroad. I mean there is no consistent or structured focus on China for research. So there is a gap in knowledge about China in Bangladesh. Our centre, although I have not actually developed it, has a plan to address these shortages, so that we can promote resources, and people could know about China more and promote academic programs. We can start with a PG diploma and masters program on China as well as organising seminars, conferences on China s Foreign Policy or China s relations with other countries. We don t have organisations doing this kind of things regularly, that s the important thing. Soni: Is it also due to the fact that there is a lack of funding? 4

Hossain: Yes, of course. It seems that the government and higher education institutions in Bangladesh focus more on teaching as clearly demonstrated in the annual budgets. If you talk our Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), we know your Ministry of External Affairs supports research projects, they support different conferences on different issues all over India, but our MFA since my association with department for the last 30 years, I have not seen many conferences supported by the MFA in the University of Dhaka. This is a different outlook and we need to change the mind-set about funding and about supporting research. This is changing, but it s at an early stage. Now they are trying to engage, but it s very limited. So, funding is a problem, and we also have resource constraint in the university or the country as a whole. Our business community do not generously fund academic endeavours. They fund more of cultural, sports and other endeavours. So there is a different philosophy working among the philanthropists in Bangladesh. When there is a question of research and then on research on China or Japan or East Asia or India, we have not actually developed such culture of funding. Soni: I understand. But can we say that your centre is the first one which initiated the focus on China? Hossain: Absolutely. Though it is very late, it is the first centre in Bangladesh which has at least announced that we will focus our research on East Asia as a whole including China, Japan and Korea. Soni: So far as Bangladesh s relations with China are concerned, what do you think about the relationship between the two countries, from the political as well as security point of view? Hossain: It is a very interesting and very important question. If you study our foreign policy, right from our independence in 1971, you will see that the regimes in power played a very critical role in setting the agenda for the foreign policy unlike many countries in the world. Political regimes who were in power since 1971, they played a crucial role, particularly after 1975. New kind of history has been created, our foreign policy became more regime-focussed and we see that Zia regime and Ershad regime had consistently focussed our foreign policy on tilting towards the West. When they framed foreign policy focussing on the West, i.e., USA, Europe and also China, China became very important country in Bangladesh and simultaneously what we saw during this period from 1976 to 1991 (Zia and Ershad regimes) a deterioration in our relations with India. It is very interesting that China policy of Bangladesh during the military rulers was seen more of a choice by the regime to use it as a kind of balancer, a kind of support to deal with Bangladesh-India relations more from the regimes perspective. And that worked even after the end of the Cold War and fall of the military regime in Bangladesh in 1990 and in 1991 we had elected democratic government. But the democratic government came with the coincidence of the end of the Cold war and the fall of autocracy in Bangladesh. BNP came into power in 1991, they maintained close friendship with China, they followed the policy of friendship. But interestingly what people thought in 1996 when Awami League (AL) came into power was that Awami League might have a different position about China, but what we saw was that AL did not change the policy that earlier regimes pursued about China. We saw that the then Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina first visited China. She came to power in 1996, visited China in early 1997. So that actually was a paradigm shift. We saw that all these regimes maintained consistent policy towards China. What people thought that with AL in power, relations might deteriorate, because China did not recognise Bangladesh as an independent country during 1972-1975. They did so after 1975, after the death of Bangabandhu. That kind of historical legacy 5

did not work to change the policy of AL. The AL pursued friendship with China and improved bilateral relations with India. China policy of Bangladesh has been quite consistent. It has a kind of regime support irrespective of any political parties or anything. This is a kind of unique phenomenon in Bangladesh Foreign Policy. China became very powerful in economic terms in 2000, and since then it has been economically important in Bangladesh. But earlier China s role in Bangladesh was only for defence purchase and for supporting some infrastructure projects, very limited support to infrastructure kind of things. Moreover, diplomatic relations were very important initially for Bangladesh-China relations. Since 2000 China remained important but the new govt which came into power in 2001, the BNP led four-party alliance govt., they could not continue the Bangladesh-India relations at the level that the AL had developed or improved during 1996-2001. So, Bangladesh-India relations again deteriorated and the BNP led four party regime became more focussed on China. Then in 2007, we had caretaker government for two years. China changed its Foreign Policy. It did not pursue the same kind of diplomatic stance that it had maintained with South Asian countries in the 1970s or 1980s or even early 1990s. It remained engaged in Bangladesh and Bangladesh also remained friendly with China. So what is happening now is that Bangladesh is maintaining very friendly relations with both India and China. So, people have become used to seeing that Bangladesh is equally friendly and very close with both the major powers. People are more or less positive and the regime is also actually maintaining the same policy and balanced approach towards the two major powers. And of course India is important. Now Bangladesh has a need for FDI and a support for infrastructural changes. We have some mega projects like deep sea port, metro railways and energy projects. We have to develop our infrastructure because our economy has grown and it is now the 33 rd largest economy in the world. Population has increased, demand has increased, and we want to make 4 to 6 lanes roads, we have a demand for energy, more people are becoming middle class, so they have new kinds of demand and consumption. The economy is in transition, so we need more support from other countries, in that case China remains very important and of course India too. Bangladesh govt is now following a kind of same policy by adjusting its special relations with India, this is what I feel, when it is the same thing under the BNP led four party regime or even if it comes to power in future their policy will be to continue friendship with China, with partly deteriorated or low profile relations with India. So it s a different kind of adjustment. It may happen that the regime in Bangladesh in future, if it doesn t have strong relations with India, then it will become over dependent on China. The current regime is following a balanced approach towards these two countries, because our economy and our development, if you think in the changed context of South Asian security and politics, there is new Myanmar that we see, the importance of Indian Ocean and also the way US and EU want to involve themselves in South Asia and Bangladesh, so we have security predicaments which Bangladesh government is addressing by focussing friendship on both countries. Soni: So you mean to say that Bangladesh is pursuing a kind of balanced relationship with both the countries? Hossain: I think so. Soni: Because both the countries are neighbours and Bangladesh needs both of them. 6

Hossain: Yes. It is not only geopolitical compulsions, but also more of economic compulsions for Bangladesh. Soni: Is it also a geo-strategic compulsion? Hossain: Yes. But economic compulsions are very important for Bangladesh. People know very little about Bangladesh s economic ascendancy. We have 160 million people or more in reality are living in this small territory and among them we have still 23% people who are living under poverty line. We also need to address the needs of the growing middle class and the needs of the growing young generation. We need a lot of development projects, for which Bangladesh doesn t have capital and resources. So I think, there is a possibility for win-win relations for economic engagement with China and also with India. And because of the demand of domestic market and also because of the demand of some products of Bangladesh in foreign markets, there is a very good possibility of economic benefits for both Bangladesh and China. Soni: We are talking about economic benefits and on this count what kind of economic benefits Bangladesh can get from China? One important project, as you said, is the maritime Silk Road. Can you please elaborate it in terms of benefits Bangladesh can get from China because China wants Bangladesh to be in this project? Hossain: To me, it s more of a kind of framework of China s current international relations. It is a kind of package that China wants to promote basically for deeper relations with Bangladesh or with many Asian countries. So whether it is a maritime silk road or one belt, one road, actually China thinks that their power projection and also the way they have developed their economy, they need to have more support and more market for their products and for their economic penetration, so this is important for them. And also diplomatically it is very important because all big countries or great countries have kind of global ambition and for that matter China has global ambition or regional ambition. What we have learned from this is that every country in the world has its own ambitions, whether it is at sub-regional level or global level or regional level. So, China has its own ambition and particularly regional ambition is very important because China is focussing on Japan, the USA and they think that presence of USA or Japan s involvement is not in their interest, so they try to reduce their influence in the region. In such a scenario China needs Bangladesh and other countries not just for support but the kind of strength that they can use to feel that they are secure. But for Bangladesh we do not have that kind of ambition. We do not have any regional or subregional level ambition. We cannot have. Our foreign policy does not suggest it, you can examine it right after 16 th December 1971 until today. No regime actually focussed on that point. Things went very wrong, as I indicated earlier, because some regimes actually for their regime interests tried to oppose certain country and kept distance with certain country like India. The military regimes tried to create more distance with India, which was completely against our national interest. India is our great neighbour and also Bangladesh is a great neighbour to India. I mean no regimes can undermine the relations between these two countries. But the military regimes undermined the relations. We saw some response from the Indian political regime during that time and if you just see what the issues were they also undermined the relations with Bangladesh. So, that was like a response-stimuli, like an input-output process. Some actions taken by regimes in the late 1970s or early 1980s in addition to India s response were also not positive for Bangladesh. India took certain actions and Bangladesh also responded. 7

Now about the economic benefits I would say that given its power position in the world and its global and regional ambition it is very clear that China has economic, diplomatic and security stakes, but Bangladesh actually has its economic stake. When we have friendship with India, we don t feel our security or diplomacy is at stake. So our s is basically economic. Our economy can benefit from close relations with China. Very frankly speaking that India is also now gathering its economic strength, but it will take time and India has its own needs for infrastructure development, energy security, it s a huge country, it s a huge democracy, it s not like China where the regime decides everything. India has different structure and has a different social system, so it needs its own development first. Country like Bangladesh can really benefit from India also, but China can invest and also Japan. We are need to focus on Japan if we want to have mega projects for maintaining our economic strength and also to transform it further. If you move out of Dhaka, you will see how much need there is, our roads are not in proper shape, our rivers are not in proper shape. It is a kind of country of rivers, we have excellent and one of the finest river network system but we don t have proper development. The rivers are drying, they are no longer rivers, they have become canals. It is really important for us to involve and get support from China and India for our economic development. This is the thing actually our political regime also considers but you know at the end of the day, regime has its own calculations. Every regime wants to be in power and they have their own friends. In that case for example, you can easily see that the current regime has some differences with the US or EU. The US and EU used to involve in domestic political matters, but for the first time they were actually treated in a different way by the present regime. If you see from a regime perspective, then what we see now is that the regime is friendly with India and also with China and Japan. So we see a growing focus on Asia in our foreign policy now. We often say about Look East policy, no government in Bangladesh has pursued it properly but if we analyse the diplomatic initiatives of this government over the last 7 years, you will see there is a clear focus of the foreign policy towards the East. This government has strengthened its relations with Japan, Russia, South Korea, Vietnam and ASEAN. So we can see a clear shift of foreign policy towards East Asia, South-East Asia and also of course with India. So, a clear focus on Asia is a new thing in our foreign policy and in that case our relations with China have become very important, even for our economic development it is very important. That kind of thing, I think, works in the mind of common people, academics and even government. But you know there are always people with vested interests, they have a different understanding of things. It is of adjusting relations with India under a particular regime, with very friendly relations with China; or very friendly relations with India and adjusting relations with China. And at the end of the day, by and large we can say that it is more of a balanced approach that Bangladesh follows and is focussing on our development needs. Partly for the current regime, the political and diplomatic issues as well as our historical relations with India have certain advantages, but it is not always the case with all regimes. These are the dynamics, but probably it is both. Soni: A little bit related question about the SAARC. You know China has an observer status in the SAARC. Given the scenario, which you explained, do you think China should be given membership in the SAARC? Hossain: It has become an issue of controversy in Bangladesh. In South Asia, some intellectuals or experts are in favour of making China as a member of SAARC, while some are not very keen about 8

this. I worked on regional cooperation for my PhD and it is one of my very core areas of research focussing on regional cooperation process whether it is at sub-regional or regional levels. My view is very clear. I do not think it is wise to make China a member of SAARC now. Personally, I am not favouring even the idea of creating observer status within SAARC, because SAARC has a lot to do internally to become a credible organisation. So when you cannot work properly, if you invite more burden on your shoulder then you will just be an ineffective and SAARC has become like this. SAARC has not even been able to formulate a proper mechanism to involve observers. In every Summit, observers come and speak and that s all. This is what the situation is now. Look at ASEAN, how they are using their dialogue partners and what is their structure. Soni: For that matter, SCO too can be an example. Hossain: Yes, you are right. I actually asked this question one Secretary General of SAARC who told me that he is helpless because members are not willing to strengthen the Secretariat. We know Secretariat is very weak in SAARC structure and he does not even have status as Minister. So I think there is no question of having new members to SAARC, whether it is China or Myanmar or any country. I want SAARC to become strong first then think about involving other countries, because China has its own interests USA has its own interest, EU has its own interest, South Korea has its own interest and Japan has its own interest. They come and involve in SAARC and they will dilute SAARC s purpose, activities and which is otherwise a very vulnerable organisation. We know what SAARC has produced over the last three decades. So given the condition, the achievements and institutional structure of SAARC, I don t think China s involvement as a member of SAARC will help SAARC. It will rather open a new Pandora s box and make SAARC more of a geo-political institution, more of a kind of balance of power thing, more of a rivalry on the one hand China and on the other hand India, then Pakistan will side in favour of China, and Bangladesh and other countries might try to side with India. So I am not even in favour of making countries observers unless we prepare to involve them and SAARC is not prepared actually. I want SAARC to make strong internally and regionally first. There should be more inter-regional trade and investment, energy cooperation, and because of some members we cannot have inter-regional cooperation process like BCIM. This BCIM thing is very important. So we should focus on sub-regional cooperation and of course SAARC is very important. But SAARC and sub-regional cooperation are focussing only on 8 members and if it goes beyond sub-regional project this will actually give a very concrete structure to develop. That s how actually EU developed and that s how ASEAN developed. We know, for how many years ASEAN remained as a 7-member organisation till it became 10 just after the Cold war. And how seriously India was pursuing to become a member of ASEAN, it could not even become member until today. When idea of SAARC was floated in early 1980s, India was not interested and even Sri Lanka was not interested because they were interested about ASEAN. ASEAN has not made India as its member nor Sri Lanka. So if ASEAN cannot make India or Sri Lanka as its member for last 35 years or more, then how can SAARC accept new members from other regions. What is the purpose if you ask me from a very academic perspective and also a real life point of view, I do not see any point. I am very clear about this. There are many other ways to involve China and China is involved in South Asia through bilateral relations. We have different regional forums where China can be a part, but regional cooperation has a mandate and institutional engagement involves actually other powers also. 9

Soni: Do you think Bangladesh has any role to play between India and China so far relationship is concerned? Hossain: With the current situation, I don t see that. But in future or if you think the kind of relations Bangladesh has with India or with China, with more confidence and with more trust at some point of time, Bangladesh can play this role because our diplomacy has a track record and we have been playing a very active role in the least developed world and on the issues of climate change, global health. Bangladesh also took a very active role in the formation of SAARC itself. It has a record of playing active diplomatic role in regional and other framework. If India does not suspect Bangladesh s relations with China from security or from geo-political perspective, as I think this will be a fact very soon because the way our regimes are working focussing on Bangladesh s development, it might become very clear to India and, of course, to China that Bangladesh doesn t pursue its geo-political interest by creating enmity or hostility between China and India. This is very important because India and China have to trust Bangladesh that it doesn t engage itself in the so called realpolitik game of using one great power against another. So there is an opportunity for Bangladesh because its foreign policy and discourse is moving towards the direction that Bangladesh feels that we need a strong South Asia under the leadership of India and we also need a strong Asia where China has its own strong role and India and other powers. The kind of vision which is working in the policy circle of Bangladesh and also among the people who are informed and aware of this, that kind of understanding will eventually help maintain some relations, some kind of informal role to reduce mutual mistrust between India and China. Our Indian friends become very concerned when they come and ask what you think about China, where China is moving towards and we could see that they focus more on our relations with China from security perspective which is not the fact. How much defence procurement we have from China, it s very very small and it doesn t matter, because we have defence procurement from Russia and India. We also procure things from USA. We have access to Bay of Bengal so we need some naval strength and we have stopped piracy and other things. India must trust Bangladesh to the extent that it is not engaged in this kind of game or that we are welcoming Chinese influence into Bangladesh to balance Indian influence in Bangladesh which is not the fact. But what I understand from Chinese circle is that they are still more focussed on Japan, even when they work in Bangladesh, their focus is on Japan. I think this is still the priority of China. So that is how I actually see this. And it also depends on who is in power in Bangladesh for playing such kind of role what you have proposed to me. I think with a secular, moderate political forces in power who would work beyond any communal, religious or historical baggage, may contribute to better environment at inter-state and regional levels. So, domestic dynamics are also very important. Soni: How successful is China s Look South policy in comparison to India s Look East policy? Hossain: Historically, we can say that China has succeeded whether we call it Look South policy or not, because China has succeeded to have very strong relations starting with Myanmar, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka even small countries like Bhutan, Nepal, so China has succeeded a lot because of its economic muscle and resources. That has made the difference actually. Diplomatically they have been trying but they could not succeed much. When Japan emerged as an economic power, they provided more economic resources and their relations became strong. And for India, I don t think 10

India has succeeded much in terms of its Look East policy. But I don t think that it has not achieved anything. Soni: Now India has launched its Act East policy which is more vibrant than its Look East policy. What do you want to say? Hossain: Yeah, I know, India has launched its Act East policy towards North-East India, Myanmar, and Bangladesh. I feel this policy is very important and effective for India, and also for Bangladesh. We together can pursue this Act East policy. Despite limitations in its economic strength, diplomatically, India is a much more prominent power in this part of the world, whether it s Malaysia or Thailand. India has its own economic predicaments, so it could not provide much economically. Another limitation is that when India was pursuing its Look East policy, it was isolating Bangladesh. India was not actually taking Bangladesh into consideration. So, Look East of India should actually focus on Bangladesh first, because if you see North-East India or mainland India, your main purpose is actually to improve North-East India. But North-East India cannot achieve results just by focussing on South East Asia. Other countries will come when you have the capacity to absorb their investment. For example, what happened just yesterday between Bangladesh and India is a very fascinating thing. Bangladesh did export bandwidth to India and India has decided to provide power, electricity and bandwidth exchange. This bandwidth is for North-East India. So if you cannot have your internal infrastructure in proper shape, and your basic industrialization to which Bangladesh can contribute a lot through market, capital and other things because of geographical proximity and other things. The reason why we need India for investment, it is geographical proximity. Trade has its own benefits. In the way, North-East India also needs Bangladesh. And with Bangladesh India could actually pursue its Act East policy properly. Overall, if you compare to China, India is not that successful, China is more successful. Soni: Are you going to focus on these kinds of issues what we have just discussed in your programs for the Centre so that in future students can attend and learn more on such issues? Hossain: Yes. For our academic endeavours I shall try to focus on this perspective. If we can have any kind of research program developed with support from outside or even by our own, we will try to project this particular view in our research and programs. Soni: Let s hope in future China studies will be developed. As of now do you consider China Studies is at the stage of beginning basically in Bangladesh? Hossain: Yes, it s in the beginning. But we can develop it further with our network and cooperation in future. I invite you to come again and if we have more collaboration and relations we can exchange and have interactions. Soni: Thank you very much for sparing time to give your interview. 11