1 STATE OF MARYLAND, * IN THE * CIRCUIT COURT V * FOR KERRON ANDREWS, * BALTIMORE CITY Defendant. * CASE NOS. 114149007-009 * * * * * * * * * * * * TRANSCRIPT OF OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS (Cont. of Motion to Dismiss/Suppress/Sanctions Hearing) -- -- -- -- -- BEFORE: THE HONORABLE CHARLES J. PETERS, JUDGE -- -- -- - -- HEARING DATE: June 4, 2015 -- -- -- -- -- APPEARANCES: For the State: Katie M. O'Hara, ASA For the Defendant: Deborah K. Levi, APD Transcriptionist: Catherine M. Griffin, CET-793 Transcription Service: Heaver Plaza 1301 York Road, Suite 601 Lutherville, Maryland 21093 Proceedings recorded on digital media with video, transcript produced by transcription service.
2 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 EXAMINATION: 3 STATE'S WITNESSES: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 4 None called. 5 6 DEFENSE'S WITNESSES: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 7 Jeffrey Converse (Cont'd) 8 By Ms. Levi 8 -- 37 -- 9 By Ms. O'Hara -- 27 -- -- 10 John Haley 11 By Ms. Levi 47 -- -- -- 12 By Ms. O'Hara -- -- -- -- 13 Michael Spinatto 14 By Ms. Levi 65 -- -- -- 15 By Ms. O'Hara -- 86 -- -- 16 17 EXHIBITS: 18 DEFENSE'S MOTION EXHIBITS: MARKED ADMITTED 19 Exhibit 11 20 Double-Blind Photo Array Proc., 11 pps. 11 13 21 Exhibit 12 22 Lotus Note/Progress Report of (4/30/14) 38 41 23 Exhibit 13 24 Status Report of Detective Converse 43 -- 25
3 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS (CONTINUED) 2 3 DEFENSE'S MOTION EXHIBITS (CONT'D): MARKED ADMITTED 4 Exhibit 14 5 Copy of Application of DNR 70 -- 6 Exhibit 15 7 Copy of J-7 of General Order BCPD 81 -- 8 9 STATE'S MOTION EXHIBITS: 10 None offered. 11 12 13 PAGE(S) 14 DEFENSE'S REQUEST TO POSTPONE BRIEFING: 90 15 COURT'S SUGGESTION RE DEFENSE'S REQUEST TO POSTPONE: 91 16 DEFENSE'S DISCUSSION RE DISCOVERY NOT RECEIVED: 92 17 DEFENSE'S MOTION TO DISMISS, SUPPRESS AND SANCTIONS 18 MOTION: By Ms. Levi 112 19 RESPONSE: By Ms. O'Hara 121 20 RULING: By The Court [granted in part] 125 21 22 23 24 25
4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (On the record - 10:18:43 a.m., Defendant present.) 3 THE COURT: All right. Counsel, you want to 4 call Mr. Andrews' case. 5 MS. O'HARA: Yes, Your Honor. Good morning. 6 Calling the State of Maryland versus Kerron Andrews, 7 114149007, through and including 009. Assistant State's 8 Attorney, Katie O'Hara, for the State. 9 MS. LEVI: Good afternoon, Your Honor. Deborah 10 Levi, on behalf of Mr. Andrews. I apologize for being 11 tardy. I was dealing with a mistrial, from yesterday 12 afternoon, this morning in Judge Heard's chambers. 13 THE COURT: All right. Can we have Mr. Andrews, 14 I guess, cuffed in the front then. So, where are we then, 15 Counsel? 16 MS. O'HARA: Your Honor, it would be my 17 recollection that Ms. Levi was finished examining 18 Detective Converse. I would have an opportunity, I 19 believe, now to cross-examine Detective Converse. 20 By way of just a scheduling matter, I had 21 inquired of Ms. Levi if she intended to call Detective 22 Converse's supervisor, Sergeant Fallon, who I've made 23 available last hearing date, and is available today. 24 If he's not going to be called, I'd like to 25 excuse him. He has been in the Southwest District for two
5 1 days straight. And if he's not necessary, I'd like to -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. Well, is he -- 3 MS. O'HARA: -- be able to let him get on with 4 his -- 5 THE COURT: -- you tell me. 6 MS. O'HARA: It's Ms. Levi's position. 7 MS. LEVI: Well, I did actually -- I hadn't 8 quite rested with the Detective. I only had one more set 9 of questions briefly to ask him -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MS. LEVI: -- before I turned him over. And 12 then -- 13 THE COURT: All right. Where's Detective 14 Converse? 15 MS. O'HARA: He's in the hallway, Your Honor. 16 I'll get him. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MS. LEVI: -- Detective Converse. And then as 19 to Detective Fallon -- 20 MS. O'HARA: -- I'm sorry. 21 MS. LEVI: -- my intention was then to question 22 the officer who dealt with the Stingray and the cell phone 23 information. Do, I didn't need Detective Fallon. 24 MS. O'HARA: Okay. So, I'm going to excuse 25 Sergeant Fallon.
6 1 MS. LEVI: Sergeant, I'm sorry -- 2 MS. O'HARA: Thank you. 3 MS. LEVI: -- Sergeant Fallon. 4 MS. O'HARA: And I'll get Detective Converse. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE COURT: Go ahead, Detective, why don't you 7 take the stand again. All right. Why don't we have him 8 re-sworn. 9 THE CLERK: Raise your right hand. 10 JEFFREY CONVERSE 11 (A witness, previously ordered to be produced by the 12 Court, previously produced by the State, previously called 13 by the Defense, was sworn according to law, resumes the 14 witness stand and continues testifying as follows:) 15 MR. CONVERSE: I do. 16 CLERK: Okay. You can have a seat. Once you're 17 situated, make sure you speak into the microphone. And 18 state your name and assignment for the record. 19 MR. CONVERSE: Detective Jeffrey Converse, 20 Criminal Investigation Division, Southwestern District 21 Detective Unit, Shooting Investigations. 22 THE CLERK: Thank you. 23 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel. 24 MS. LEVI: I'm sorry, Your Honor, my apologies. 25 I don't remember the last exhibit that I --
7 1 THE COURT: Okay. I think it's Exhibit 8, so it 2 would be Exhibit 9. 3 THE CLERK: Your Honor, I have 9 and 10. I have 4 11, it should be. 5 THE COURT: Well, that's interesting. Well, 6 hang on a second. 7 THE CLERK: I have 9 (approaching the bench) -- 8 THE COURT: Have they been marked? 9 THE CLERK: Yes, for evidence, 9 is the notes in 10 the interview -- Notes Interview with somebody, Spenotto. 11 And then the e-mails from the State is No. 10, marked as 12 evidence. 13 THE COURT: All right. Well, I'd say we're on 14 No. 11 then. 15 MS. LEVI: Thank you, Your Honor. And Court's 16 indulgence? I just received these documents in response 17 to the subpoena from the police department upon my entry 18 into the courtroom. (Consulting with Counsel.) 19 THE COURT: (Court briefly handles unrelated 20 matter, not transcribed.) 21 MS. LEVI: Your Honor, may I approach -- 22 THE COURT: Yes, Madame Clerk -- yes. 23 MS. LEVI: -- the Clerk to number exhibits -- 24 THE COURT: -- yes. (Unrelated aside 25 conversation not transcribed.)
8 1 MS. LEVI: May I approach the witness, Your 2 Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes, go right ahead. 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) 5 BY MS. LEVI 6 Q I'm going to show you what's previously been 7 marked as Defense Exhibit 1. Can you tell me again what 8 that is, Detective Converse? 9 A It appears to be a copy of General Order J-9, 10 the Double-Blind Sequential Photographic Array Procedures. 11 Q Okay. And you're familiar with that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And I'm going to direct your attention -- and at 14 the top, it says the date published. Can you tell me the 15 date published for the record? 16 A October 22nd, 2013. 17 Q And I believe that I've entered this into 18 evidence, but with delay, it's been three weeks I think 19 since the last proceeding, I'd move to enter that into 20 evidence, just to be extra cautious. 21 MS. O'HARA: I have no objection. 22 BY MS. LEVI 23 Q All right. And then I'm going to direct -- 24 THE COURT: All right. So, this is No. 12? 25 MS. LEVI: No, actually this is No. 1. I'm not
9 1 sure if it's been admitted or just identified, so just to 2 be cautious. 3 THE COURT: Well, hang on one second. What is 4 it -- what are you showing? 5 MS. LEVI: This is the photographic array 6 procedures. 7 THE COURT: No, I get that. But what is the -- 8 on the original hearing date, what was -- 9 MS. LEVI: Number 1. 10 THE COURT: Do you show it being admitted, 11 Madame Clerk? 12 THE CLERK: It shows it was admitted. 13 MS. LEVI: Okay. 14 THE CLERK: Yes. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MS. LEVI: Sorry. 17 THE COURT: Hang on one second. (Turns on white 18 noise; handles unrelated matter; turns off white noise.) 19 Go ahead. Go ahead, Counsel. 20 BY MS. LEVI 21 Q Can I direct your attention then to Page 5 22 of 11. 23 A In here, it's only listed as ten pages. 24 Q At the top, it should say, in the right-hand 25 corner, Page 5 of 11 --
10 1 A (Indicating.) 2 Q Oh, okay. Well, let me hand you the one I was 3 given today from the police department. And apparently 4 that one's a little bit different. So, we'll switch those 5 out. 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What are you switching 7 out? 8 MS. LEVI: So, it looks like, Your Honor, the 9 copy of the photo array procedures that Defense Counsel 10 previously identified as Exhibit No. 1 was published on 11 October 22nd, 2013. And then I subpoenaed, just to be 12 sure, an extra copy from the police department. 13 Mr. Shubert (phonet) was here this morning, he had to go 14 to a civil docket. He responded to this subpoena this 15 morning in person. And left a copy. 16 And now, it's the same document photographic 17 procedures -- Double-Blind Sequential Photographic Array 18 Procedures. But instead of saying there's [sic] ten 19 pages, this one says there's 11 pages. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, you should have it 21 marked then, I think. Otherwise -- 22 MS. LEVI: Okay. So, why don't we then -- 23 THE COURT: -- I don't know how we're -- 24 MS. LEVI: -- yes, that's a great idea. Mark it 25 as Exhibit?
11 1 THE COURT: You can mark it Exhibit 11, I 2 believe -- 3 THE CLERK: 11. 4 (Defense's Exhibit 11 is marked for identification.) 5 MS. LEVI: Okay. May I just retrieve that 6 briefly. I didn't expect that. If I may have Court's 7 indulgence for one second? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 MS. LEVI: I'm sorry. I didn't expect them to 10 be different, and I'm looking for Page 1. All right. 11 BY MS. LEVI 12 Q So, can you tell me again what that is. That's 13 Defense Exhibit 11. 14 A It doesn't have the General Order listed on it. 15 But it's dated October 22nd, 2013, the Double- 16 Blind/Sequential Photographic Array Procedures. 17 Q All right. And if I could direct then, your 18 attention on that one, to Page 5 of 11? Do I have it 19 right here? 20 A There's no 5. 21 Q Okay. There you go (handing document to the 22 witness). Sorry. This is a little sloppy, because I 23 didn't know they were different. So, there you go. 24 THE COURT: Is that all one document? 25 MS. LEVI: Yes. Apparently it is all one
12 1 document -- 2 THE COURT: All right. Can you -- 3 MS. LEVI: -- and I only have one copy. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Can you pass it up to be 5 stapled, or pass it to Madame Clerk -- 6 MS. LEVI: Yes, Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: -- so it can be stapled. 8 MS. LEVI: (Approaching the Clerk.) 9 BY MS. LEVI 10 Q Okay. I'm going to re-hand you Defense Exhibit 11 11. And if I can direct your attention to Page 5 of 11. 12 Okay. 13 MS. LEVI: And I better, for sake of 14 housekeeping purposes, make the record clear, the one that 15 I -- we entered -- Defense entered into Exhibit 1 at the 16 prior proceeding, was what we believed to be the most 17 current Double-Blind Sequential Photo Array Procedures. 18 BY MS. LEVI 19 Q So, now that I've shown you what the police 20 department arrived with today -- also published on October 21 22nd, 2013 -- is it your understanding, Detective 22 Converse, that those are the most recent procedures for 23 Double-Blind Sequential Photographic Array Procedures? 24 A I don't -- 25 Q You want to take --
13 1 A -- I don't know. 2 Q -- you want to take a minute to look at them? 3 A (Reviewing document.) 4 Q Is that your understanding to be the most recent 5 copy of the Double-Blind Sequential Photographic Array 6 Procedures? 7 A If you got this from our legal department, I 8 would have to say yes. 9 Q Okay. 10 MS. LEVI: At this time, I would move to admit 11 Defense Exhibit 11 into evidence. 12 MS. O'HARA: No objection. 13 THE COURT: All right. It will be admitted. 14 (Defense's Exhibit 11, Double-Blind Sequential 15 Photographic Array Procedures, 11 pages, is identified and 16 admitted into evidence.) 17 BY MS. LEVI 18 Q Okay. Now, if I could direct your attention to 19 Page 5 of 11. 20 A Which 5 of 11? There's [sic] two of them. 21 Q Well, let's see, if they're exactly the same, 22 then I would say either one. 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I thought there was ten 24 pages in one, and then 11 pages in the other, and now 25 there are 11 pages in both?
14 1 MS. LEVI: Your Honor, the one that we entered 2 into -- the exhibit -- I'm sorry, the one that we entered 3 into evidence at the last proceeding is dated October 4 22nd, 2013, is what we believed to be the most updated. I 5 haven't -- 6 THE COURT: I think this one's dated October 7 22nd, 2013. 8 BY MS. LEVI 9 Q So at the end, actually, Detective, there may be 10 -- sometimes on the very last page, will be an updated 11 date on there. Can you please flip to the very last page 12 and see if there's a date that the report was updated. Or 13 I'm happy to do that for Your Honor -- and for myself, as 14 well. 15 A On both Page 11 of 11s, there's no update. 16 Q Okay. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So, these are the -- is 18 State's Exhibit -- or I'm sorry, Defense Exhibit 1 and 11, 19 are they the same document? 20 MR. CONVERSE: (No audible/visible response.) 21 MS. LEVI: Um. 22 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, you're 23 referring to Page 5 of 11, we're doing State's Exhibit 24 No. 11. Okay. 25 MS. LEVI: Defense Exhibit --
15 1 THE COURT: Defense Exhibit No. 11 -- 2 MS. LEVI: Right. 3 THE COURT: -- thank you. 4 MS. LEVI: If I may approach briefly, Your 5 Honor -- 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 MS. LEVI: -- to also look for an updated date. 8 And again, I just received those documents. 9 MR. CONVERSE: And there's [sic] two pages, 5 10 and 11, there's [sic] two of every page. 11 MS. LEVI: Oh, good. Then he did give us two 12 copies. Detective Converse has indicated there's [sic] 13 two of every page. 14 So, I guess the police department provided us 15 two copies of every page without -- and I'm going to look 16 on the last page to see -- 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MS. LEVI: -- if there is -- it's interesting. 19 THE COURT: Wait a minute, Counsel. Wait a 20 minute. So there are 22 pages in that document? 21 MS. LEVI: Can I have Court's indulgence, and 22 I'll separate them, so it's -- 23 THE COURT: Sure. 24 MS. LEVI: -- so we're entering the correct 25 document into the record.
16 1 THE COURT: All right. While you're doing that, 2 Counsel, everyone remain seated -- 3 MS. LEVI: I had subpoenaed the -- 4 THE COURT: -- I'm going to -- I'll step off for 5 one second. 6 MS. LEVI: Thank you, Your Honor. Sorry. I had 7 subpoenaed them for the last hearing. 8 (Off the record / Judge stands down - 10:33:15 a.m.) 9 (On the record / Judge re-entering the courtroom - 10 10:37:17 a.m.) 11 THE COURT: Everybody remain seated. Go ahead, 12 Ms. Levi. 13 MS. LEVI: Your Honor, thank you for giving me 14 time to compare the two documents. It appears that they 15 are similar entirely. The font and the style was changed 16 in the one the police department brought today. But the 17 content is the same, which is why there's no updated 18 version, and one has ten pages and one has 11. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MS. LEVI: So, for the sake of clarity, if we 21 could go with the one that the police department brought 22 today -- 23 THE COURT: That's Defense Exhibit No. 11. 24 MS. LEVI: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay.
17 1 MS. LEVI: And may I approach the witness 2 then -- 3 THE COURT: Yes, go ahead. 4 MS. LEVI: -- again, Your Honor. Actually, the 5 Clerk, first -- Madame Clerk, to mark it, I think it was 6 improperly marked. So, we'll start all over. 7 THE COURT: Okay. So, again, that is Defense 8 Exhibit 11? 9 MS. LEVI: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MS. LEVI: And I'd move to admit, so -- 12 THE CLERK: I still noted that -- 13 THE COURT: It's been admitted. 14 MS. LEVI: Okay. 15 THE COURT: It's been admitted. 16 MS. LEVI: Thank you. 17 BY MS. LEVI 18 Q Thank you for your patience, Detective Converse. 19 If I could now direct your attention to Page 5 of 11. Are 20 you with me? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Q At the top of the page, looking down, there's 23 Numeral 4, and then Numeral 5. Can you read Numeral 5 for 24 me, please. 25 A "Make a copy of the completed photographic array
18 1 forms, and retain them in the investigative case folder." 2 Q And then, can you continue to read the note, it 3 says, "NOTE" in all caps, below that. Could you say that 4 for me, please. 5 A Yes. "These procedures must be followed for all 6 photographic arrays, whether or not identification was 7 made." 8 Q And we would agree that, as you said last time, 9 you did not do that in this particular case, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Yes? 12 A I did not do that. 13 Q Okay. And then, can you read No. 6 out loud for 14 me, please. 15 A "The primary investigator must submit to the 16 Evidence Control Unit, ECU, all original completed 17 photographic arrays, and associated forms, including the 18 original numbered folders" contained -- I'm sorry -- 19 "containing shown photographs and Forms 480/13 Annex B, 20 481/13 Annex C, and 482/13 Annex D." 21 Q And you understand that to mean that you were to 22 submit the photographic array in a sealed envelope -- or 23 in an envelope, right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And then the ECU, the Evidence Control Unit,
19 1 would then retain that property as evidence, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And give you a property submission receipt, 4 correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q So, there'd be a record of it, right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And it would be safely kept until trial, right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you did not do that in this case, did you? 11 A No. 12 Q So, not in your case file, right? 13 A No. 14 Q And not in ECU, right? 15 A No. 16 Q And then again, if you could look to the next 17 section of the page, in all capitals, "REPORTING RESULTS 18 OF PHOTO ARRAY." Do you see that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And can you read No. 1 out loud for me? 21 A "The primary investigator must prepare a form 22 482/13 for each photographic array shown and submit it to 23 ECU. This report must include the date, time and location 24 of the photo array, and identify each photograph by the 25 SID number or another unique identifier in the order
20 1 shown, and the date the photos were taken." 2 Q And then, again, keep reading in 1.1. 3 A "Document the ECU Number on a Supplemental 4 Report Form 007." 5 Q And then, No. 2. 6 A "If any questions arise concerning the" -- 7 excuse me -- "if any questions arise concerning the 8 procedure, or the showing of a photographic array, consult 9 with" the supervisory personnel -- "consult with 10 supervisory personnel for guidance." 11 Q And we can agree that you did not do a Form 12 482/13 for this photographic array, did you? 13 A For which photographic array? 14 Q The photographic array that was shown to 15 Mr. Braxton, and the photographic array -- actually, thank 16 you -- and the photographic array that was shown -- 17 MS. LEVI: (Consulting with Counsel) -- I'm 18 sorry, Mr. Braxton is my trial that I was just. 19 BY MS. LEVI 20 Q -- Mr. Holloway? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And the photographic array -- 23 MS. LEVI: (Consulting with Counsel.) 24 BY MS. LEVI 25 Q -- and the photographic array that was shown to
21 1 Rihanna Allen, right? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you did not consult with your supervisor for 4 any questions that had arisen regarding the procedure for 5 photographic arrays, did you? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q And then lastly, if you can read the next 8 section titled, "Supervisors." Can you read that for me, 9 please. 10 A "Ensure the above procedures are followed by 11 members of the department. If there are questions 12 concerning the procedure or the showing of a photo array, 13 consult with the State's Attorney's Office or the Legal 14 Affairs Section of the Baltimore Police Department." 15 Q You didn't do that in this case, did you? 16 A No. 17 Q You didn't say, would it be okay for me to keep 18 this negative photo array in my desk? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q And then to the -- I said lastly, but I didn't 21 really mean that, I'm going to mean it now. Can you go to 22 the next page, Page 6 of 11. And again, "REPORTING 23 RESULTS OF PHOTO ARRAY," this is the last section about 24 the duties to report. Can you read No. 1 for me. 25 A "The primary investigator must prepare the forms
22 1 contained in this policy for each photographic array for 2 submission to ECU upon completion, as appropriate. 3 Identify each photograph by the SID number or other unique 4 identifier in the order shown, and the date the photos 5 were taken." 6 Q So, how that translates is that, I'm showing 7 you -- 8 MS. LEVI: I'm not going to enter it into 9 evidence -- 10 BY MS. LEVI 11 Q -- but I'm going to show an envelope. You would 12 recognize this as an envelope that's sometimes submitted 13 to ECU, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And so what you just read means, that there 16 should be an envelope with a photo array for each photo 17 array that was conducted in this case, correct? 18 A Yes, or all in the same envelope. 19 Q Well, doesn't it say, for each photographic 20 array -- 21 THE COURT: Well, Ms. Levi, I -- 22 MS. LEVI: Okay. Fine. 23 THE COURT: -- I don't think it was submitted. 24 I -- 25 MS. LEVI: Okay.
23 1 THE COURT: -- think he's acknowledged it, and 2 -- thank you. 3 BY MS. LEVI 4 Q Did your supervisor look over your file -- 5 A No. 6 Q -- in this case? 7 A No, he did not. 8 Q And if your supervisor had looked over your 9 file, how would your supervisor -- your supervisor 10 wouldn't have even known that you had, for all intents and 11 purposes, hidden a photo array in your desk? 12 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 13 THE COURT: (No audible response.) 14 BY MS. LEVI 15 Q Does your supervisor have any way looking at 16 that to determine that you had completed a photo array 17 that you didn't submit? Looking, by this, I mean your 18 case folder. 19 A No. 20 Q Detective Converse, it's fair to say, you knew 21 full well that you should have kept that photo array, both 22 of them, in your case file, right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you should have submitted them to ECU, 25 right?
24 1 A Yes. 2 Q And you didn't? 3 A No, I did not. 4 MS. LEVI: And just moving onto the last topic, 5 Your Honor, for clarity sake, because there's a three-week 6 break here. I just want to ask one other question about 7 the Stingray material, just to refresh everybody's 8 recollection. 9 BY MS. LEVI 10 Q We would agree, that was your obligation -- 11 MS. LEVI: Oh, sorry, Court's indulgence? 12 THE COURT: (No audible response.) 13 BY MS. LEVI 14 Q Backing up to the photo array for one second. 15 The procedures that we just read, indicate that the 16 responsibilities we talked about are for the primary 17 investigator, right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q You were the primary investigator on the Kerron 20 Andrews' case, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. Now, moving back to the Stingray 23 information. You would agree, that you were the 24 individual who could gather up the Stingray information, 25 and provide that to the State's Attorney, right?
25 1 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could you repeat that 3 question. 4 BY MS. LEVI 5 Q If you knew the Defense Attorneys were looking 6 for information related to whether a Stingray was used in 7 this case, you would have been able to gather that 8 information -- whether a Stingray was used in this case -- 9 and present it to the State's Attorney, right? 10 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 MR. CONVERSE: I would have had to consult with 13 ATT to find out what exactly equipment that they used to 14 locate Mr. Andrews. 15 BY MS. LEVI 16 Q And you could have done that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you did not do that? 19 A No. 20 Q You never provided any information about what 21 electronic surveillance was used in this case to the 22 State's Attorney, did you? 23 A No, I did not. 24 Q But you knew electronic surveillance was used in 25 this case, did you?
26 1 A I knew something electronic, I did not know the 2 name or its technology. 3 Q Okay. 4 MS. LEVI: Could I have a moment to consult with 5 Mr. Andrews, Your Honor? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 MS. LEVI: (Consulting with Client.) Court's 8 indulgence for one second, please? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 MR. CONVERSE: Your Honor, may I have a glass of 11 water -- 12 MS. LEVI: I don't have any other questions. 13 THE COURT: Sure. Maybe Ms. O'Hara -- 14 MR. CONVERSE: Please. 15 THE COURT: -- yes, sure -- 16 MS. O'HARA: Pardon? 17 THE COURT: Could you get the Detective a glass 18 of water. 19 MR. CONVERSE: Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Is there something there? 21 MS. O'HARA: There's [sic] not cups (inaudible) 22 -- 23 THE DEPUTY: There's [sic] cups. 24 THE CLERK: We can do that. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Okay.
27 1 MR. CONVERSE: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. I'm sorry. 3 MS. O'HARA: Your Honor, thank you. 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION 5 BY MS. O'HARA 6 Q Good morning, Detective Converse. 7 A Good morning. 8 Q Detective Converse, when we left off two weeks 9 ago, the Court had asked you a question about, conducting 10 a file review in my office, and why you had not provided 11 the photo array that you conducted with Rihanna Allen 12 during the initial file review. Isn't it true that that 13 photo array did not exist at the initial file review? 14 MS. LEVI: Objection, "that photo array." 15 THE COURT: (No audible response.) 16 BY MS. O'HARA 17 Q With Rihanna Allen? 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. CONVERSE: Do you know -- 20 THE COURT: Go ahead. 21 MR. CONVERSE: -- do you know the date of the 22 follow-up -- 23 BY MS. O'HARA 24 Q We -- 25 A -- interview in your office?
28 1 Q Let me rephrase the question then. When we last 2 left, the Court asked you if we had done an initial file 3 review. And your testimony was, generated that shortly 4 after Mr. Andrews' arrest, around the time of charging, 5 that you provided a copy of your case file to me somewhere 6 in the State's Attorney's Office? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. And isn't it true that the photo array 9 you conducted with Rihanna Allen was not conducted until 10 six to seven months after that initial file review? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And isn't it also true that some of the Lotus 13 Notes that you provided only recently were not typed up, 14 were not generated at the time of the initial file review, 15 because those Lotus Notes were done after the initial file 16 review? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is it fair then to say that your investigation 19 was still continuing after our initial file review? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And that evidence that you generated -- 22 documents that you generated were evolving, and not 23 everything ended at the initial file review? 24 Q Okay. And so, what you have said is that, while 25 you gave me everything at the initial file review,
29 1 unfortunately you were not -- you did not give me things 2 after that initial file review, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And to be clear, one of the things that 5 existed at the initial file review, but that I didn't 6 have, was the photo array that you conducted with Ajabar, 7 correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And -- 10 THE COURT: That's Holloway? 11 MS. O'HARA: That's Holloway. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MS. O'HARA: Ajabar Holloway. 14 BY MS. O'HARA 15 Q And you indicated, Detective Converse, that you 16 attempted to show Ajabar Holloway -- or attempted to do a 17 photo array procedure with Ajabar Holloway at the 18 hospital, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And isn't it true that Ajabar Holloway refused 21 to look at the pictures? 22 A He did look at the pictures, but would not 23 identify anybody, make any statements, or write anything. 24 Q Okay. Would he even write his name on anything? 25 A No.
30 1 Q Would he indicate -- would he go on tape at all? 2 A No. 3 Q Would he even say the photo array was shown to 4 me, and here's my signature to say that I looked at 5 pictures? 6 A No. 7 Q So, he was completely -- I'll use the term, 8 uncooperative, in terms of he would not even follow the 9 basic tenets of, can I have you initial to say that you 10 viewed these photographs? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. So, because of that, did you believe that 13 that photo array was evidence in this case -- 14 MS. LEVI: Objection. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Grounds? 16 MS. LEVI: Pardon -- I'm just going to object to 17 the leading nature of the question. Although he was our 18 witness, I think given the circumstances and the nature of 19 the questioning, I think the detective ought to be able to 20 provide his own answer as to why. 21 THE COURT: Okay. You can do that on redirect. 22 Go ahead. Overruled. 23 BY MS. O'HARA 24 Q Did you believe that Ajabar Holloway's -- the 25 that the pictures you showed to Ajabar Holloway
31 1 constituted evidence in this case? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. And where did -- if you recall, where did 4 you put that photo array once you showed it to Ajabar 5 Holloway? 6 A It was in my desk. 7 Q Okay. Did you make any effort to throw it away? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you make any effort to shred it? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you make any effort to destroy it at all? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. If you had wanted to completely conceal 14 it, would you have thrown it away, shredded it, or somehow 15 destroyed it? 16 MS. LEVI: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. Next question. 18 BY MS. LEVI 19 Q Do you have an explanation as to why it was in 20 your desk? 21 A I don't. 22 Q Okay. Sticking with the photo array. The photo 23 array that you showed to Rihanna Allen was in January of 24 2015, correct? 25 A Yes.
32 1 Q So, this was a long time after we had done an 2 initial file review, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And in the same questions, as to that 5 photo array, where did -- the photo array that you did 6 with Rihanna Allen -- where did you put that? 7 A In my desk. 8 Q And do you have a reason why you put it in my 9 desk? 10 A I just put it in my desk drawer because it was a 11 no-identification photo array. 12 Q Okay. Did you believe -- did you believe, prior 13 to any discussions that we've had about it since then, 14 that it had evidentiary value? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And was it your attention at some point 17 to bring it to someone's attention? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. Did you make any effort to throw that 20 photo array away? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you try to shred it? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you try to conceal it? 25 A No.
33 1 Q And when I asked you about it, did you provide 2 it? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Had anyone asked you about it -- 5 MS. LEVI: Objection. 6 BY MS. O'HARA 7 Q -- before I asked you about it -- 8 MS. LEVI: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 BY MS. O'HARA 11 Q To my knowledge, no. 12 A If a supervisor, such as Sergeant Fallon, or 13 your lieutenant had asked you about it, would -- 14 MS. LEVI: Objection, relevance? 15 THE COURT: No. Overruled. Go ahead. 16 BY MS. O'HARA 17 Q -- would you have had it available for them to 18 view? 19 A Yes. 20 Q As far as the WATF and ATT information 21 Ms. Levi's asking you about, does WATF and/or ATT forward 22 you information as it relates to their part of warrant 23 apprehension or suspect location? 24 A I'm not sure I understand -- 25 Q Do they forward --
34 1 A -- the question. 2 Q -- you any documents automatically because 3 you're the primary investigator? 4 A No. 5 Q And has that been case for your cases, 6 generally? 7 A Yes. 8 Q In this case, did they forward you anything? 9 A I believe the location to where they located 10 Mr. Andrews. 11 Q Okay. And did they say, hey, by the way, we 12 have some reports, or we have some documents, do you want 13 them? 14 A No. 15 Q Were you aware if they made reports and/or kept 16 documents? 17 A No. 18 Q With regard to the actual investigation, 19 Ms. Levi began our hearing last time asking you about 20 Suspect No. 2. Based on your investigation and your 21 discussion with the witnesses in this case, did you ever 22 believe that there were two suspects to the shooting? 23 A No. 24 Q Did the witnesses ever indicate that there were 25 two shooters in this case?
35 1 A No. 2 THE COURT: Well, let me just -- did they 3 indicate that there were two people involved in the case? 4 MR. CONVERSE: Yes. Their preliminary 5 interviews had indicated there was supposedly more than 6 one person. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MS. O'HARA 9 Q Can I follow up on that by asking you to -- if 10 you can summarize what you mean by more than one person? 11 Do you mean more than one person in the area, more than 12 one person involved in the transaction and shooting? Can 13 you summarize for us? 14 A More than one person in the area. 15 Q Was it ever your understanding, from your 16 witness interviews, that there was more than one person 17 involved in the conversation with Ajabar Holloway, and who 18 was identified as the Defendant -- person identified as 19 the Defendant -- who was right there at the car, involved 20 in that conversation, and had a gun? 21 A No, there was no other person identified. 22 Q So, when you say that there was -- 23 BY THE COURT 24 Q Well, wait a minute, that's a lot -- 25 A I'm --
36 1 Q -- were there two people with -- did anyone 2 identify two people with guns, is that -- 3 A No. 4 Q All right. Did they identify there were two 5 people, one of which had a gun? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. All right. 8 BY MS. O'HARA 9 Q So, when you say that other people were 10 involved, do you mean that other people were generally in 11 the area? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So, is it fair to say that the witnesses, and 14 the statements of the witnesses gave [sic] you indicated 15 that there was one suspect? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Detective Converse, I think it's been made 18 obvious, and you have admittedly said that you have 19 violated rules of the General Order, rules of the police 20 department, rules that you know as a Detective, with 21 regard to, particularly the photo arrays in this case. 22 Did you do that -- did you do that intentionally? 23 A No, ma'am. 24 MS. O'HARA: I have nothing further from 25 Detective Converse.
37 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MS. LEVI 4 Q Detective Converse, could I turn your attention 5 to Progress Report -- let me show you actually -- 6 MS. LEVI: This is a Lotus Note 4/30/2014. 7 MS. O'HARA: Can I just get a date on it -- oh. 8 MS. LEVI: (Showing document to Opposing 9 Counsel.) May I approach, Your Honor? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MS. LEVI: You would like it on the front? 12 THE CLERK: Yes. 13 MS. LEVI: Is this number? 14 THE CLERK: 12. 15 MS. LEVI: 12. 16 BY MS. LEVI 17 Q Let me show you what's been marked for 18 identification purposes as Defense Exhibit 12. Can you 19 tell me what that is? 20 A It's a Progress Report dated April 30th, 2014. 21 Q And if you turn to the second page on that, does 22 it have the initials, JAC? 23 A The second page, no, it doesn't. 24 Q Who did that Lotus Note? 25 A Myself, I did.
38 1 (Defense's Exhibit 12 is marked for identification.) 2 BY MS. LEVI 3 Q Can you read to me -- 4 MS. LEVI: -- If I may again, Your Honor, I can 5 direct the witness's attention to -- 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 BY MS. LEVI 8 Q -- approximately the middle of the page, and the 9 date of this Lotus Note is? 10 A April 30th, 2014. 11 Q And if I could have you read, starting with the 12 word, "stated," about half way down the page. 13 A "Stated when they stopped, Ajabar called the 14 same unknown individual, still using Rihanna's phone, and 15 stated they were there, and told the individual to come 16 out of the car." 17 Q Can you just keep reading for me, please. 18 A "Stated she saw and [sic] unknown Black male 19 wearing a hoodie. No further description, who is Suspect 20 No. 2. And another unknown Black male, Suspect No. 1, 21 with the following description, 'walking from one of the 22 apartment buildings towards the car'." 23 Q So, you indicated in your Lotus Note on 24 April 30th, 2014, that there were two suspects, correct? 25 A According to what Ms. Allen said in her
39 1 interview at the time, yes. 2 Q And you indicated that both of those suspects 3 were walking towards the car together, right? 4 A If I may read it again. It says, "stated she 5 saw and [sic] unknown Black male wearing a hoodie. No 6 further description, who is Suspect No. 2. And another 7 unknown Black male...with the following description, 8 'walking from one of the apartment buildings towards the 9 car'." 10 Q Who is, Suspect Number? 11 A It could mean 1 and 2. 12 MS. LEVI: If I may approach again, please, Your 13 Honor? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 BY MS. LEVI 16 Q Just so we're clear, I'm not sure where you were 17 reading from? 18 A (Indicating.) The Progress Report that you put 19 in front of me. 20 Q Okay. So, read that again, starting with, 21 "stated she saw." 22 A "Stated she saw and [sic] unknown Black male 23 wearing a hoodie (no further description) [in 24 parentheses], who is Suspect No. 2. And another unknown 25 Black male, (Suspect No. 1) [in parentheses] with the
40 1 following description, 'walking from one of the apartment 2 buildings towards the car'." 3 Q So, unclear whether they were both walking from 4 the apartment building, or just one of them, right? 5 A Correct. 6 Q And then if you turn to the next page. Can you 7 read the line on the -- and this would be the second page 8 of that Lotus Note, right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And can you read the line on the second page of 11 that Lotus Note for me, please. 12 A "Stated she did not see which way the suspects 13 ran after the shooting." 14 Q And suspects is plural, correct? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 Q And that's your language that you used in that 17 Lotus Note, right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. 20 MS. LEVI: I move to admit Defense Exhibit 13 21 into evidence -- 22 MS. O'HARA: 12. 23 THE COURT: That's 12. 24 MR. CONVERSE: This is 12 -- 25 MS. LEVI: 12.
41 1 MS. O'HARA: No objection, Your Honor. 2 THE COURT: It's admitted. 3 (Defense's Exhibit 12, Lotus Note/Progress Report of 4 April 30, 2014, is identified and admitted into evidence.) 5 BY MS. LEVI 6 Q And then, Detective Converse, the Assistant 7 State's Attorney asked you whether, when you did your 8 initial file review, you had Ms. Rihanna Allen's photo 9 array completed. And you didn't, right? 10 A No. 11 Q But you did have Mr. Holloway's photo array 12 completed at the time of your initial file review, right? 13 A It had attempted to have been shown, yes. 14 Q Right. The one you considered to be evidence, 15 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you didn't present that to her obviously, 18 right? 19 A No, I did not. 20 Q There's no prohibition against doing another 21 case file review, right? 22 A No. 23 Q And in fact, you know you have an ongoing duty 24 to disclose evidence, as you get it, to the State's 25 Attorney, right?
42 1 A Yes. 2 Q You know that we don't play hide-and-seek with 3 evidence, right? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But in this case, we had to seek to find the 6 evidence from you, right? 7 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 8 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. Next 9 question. 10 MS. LEVI: Okay. 11 MS. LEVI: I just again received -- I subpoenaed 12 documents for the last hearing, if I could just -- this 13 may be mildly outside the scope, but just the last thing I 14 want to ask him about, Your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MS. O'HARA: Can I see the (inaudible)? 17 MS. LEVI: It's just this number of total cases 18 he's done, in the detective -- in the DDU database. 19 MS. O'HARA: Okay. 20 MS. LEVI: This doesn't have a business 21 certification (showing document to Opposing Counsel). 22 Okay. 23 MS. O'HARA: I understand. 24 BY MS. LEVI 25 Q I'm going to show you what's being marked for
43 1 identification purposes as Defense Exhibit 13. You may or 2 may not know what it is. Have you seen this before? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you tell the Court what that is. 5 A It appears to be a Detective Status Report. 6 Q And whose name is on that? 7 A Mine. 8 (Defense's Exhibit 13 is marked for identification.) 9 BY MS. LEVI 10 Q And at the top, it says the dates that that 11 covers. Can you tell me the dates that that covers. 12 A On this sheet, November 1st, 2008 to May 28th, 13 2015. 14 Q And that's the number of cases you've had in 15 that time period, correct? 16 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 MR. CONVERSE: I don't know where you got this, 19 and I can't -- 20 BY MS. LEVI 21 Q Okay -- 22 A -- stipulate to this -- 23 Q -- that's fine. That's fine. The police 24 department indicated on that paper that you've had 318 25 cases. Is it fair to say that that's roughly the number
44 1 since 2008, the number of cases that you have been 2 involved in, or have been assigned to you? 3 A I can't stipulate to that fact. 4 Q Okay. Well, can you estimate between 2008 and 5 2015, how many cases you've been involved in? 6 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 7 MR. CONVERSE: I can't estimate -- 8 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. 9 MR. CONVERSE: I can't estimate. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Next question. 11 MS. LEVI: Okay. I don't have any further 12 questions for him. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? 14 MS. O'HARA: No. 15 THE COURT: All right. Sir, you can step down. 16 Your next witness? 17 MR. CONVERSE: Do you want these items, Your 18 Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. You can give those to Madame 20 Clerk, please. And that last document, did you mark that? 21 THE CLERK: Yes. 22 MS. LEVI: I did, but it wasn't admitted, 23 because he couldn't -- 24 THE COURT: Defense Exhibit No. 13 -- 25 THE CLERK: 13.
45 1 THE COURT: All right. Okay. 2 THE CLERK: As ID. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MS. LEVI: And I was hoping to have, Your Honor, 5 the detective from the -- 6 MS. O'HARA: ATT or WATF? 7 MS. LEVI: -- whichever one was responsible for 8 gathering the information on the Stingray. I think both 9 of them would probably be necessary -- 10 MS. O'HARA: Your Honor, I have present, as I 11 had present before, Detective Mike Spinatto, from WATF. I 12 have present, Detective John Haley from ATT. I can 13 summarize that Detective John Haley works at the ATT Unit. 14 They are the unit that actually would be able to 15 speak to the use of the Stingray, and the -- I believe the 16 procedure that they used to identify location where they 17 brought WATF to assist in the arrest of Mr. Andrews. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Well -- 19 MS. O'HARA: So, I'm not sure which one 20 THE COURT: -- Ms. Levi, who do you want -- 21 MS. O'HARA: -- Ms. Levi -- 22 THE COURT: -- who do you want to testify? 23 MS. LEVI: I thought they're -- they're both 24 here today? 25 MS. O'HARA: They're both here, yep (inaudible).
46 1 MS. LEVI: Well I don't know which one is 2 responsible for -- which one, I don't know. So, I guess 3 I'll take either one. 4 MS. O'HARA: Okay. Let me start with -- I'll 5 bring in Detective Haley. Detective Haley, could you go 6 ahead and take the stand (inaudible) -- 7 THE COURT: Come on over here, sir. 8 MS. O'HARA: That's fine, yep. 9 THE CLERK: Remain standing, and raise your 10 right hand, please. 11 JOHN HALEY 12 (A witness, ordered to be produced by the Court, 13 produced by the State, called by the Defense, was sworn 14 according to law, resumes the witness stand and continues 15 testifying as follows:) 16 MR. HALEY: Yes, (inaudible). 17 CLERK: Okay. You can have a seat. Once you're 18 situated, make sure you speak into the microphone. And 19 state your name and assignment for the record. 20 MR. HALEY: Detective John Haley, Baltimore City 21 Police, ATT Unit, Advance Technical Team. 22 THE CLERK: Thank you. 23 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel. 24 DIRECT EXAMINATION 25 BY MS. LEVI
47 1 Q Detective Haley, tell me what you do for the 2 Advance Technical Team, please. 3 A We do all the electronic surveillance -- excuse 4 me -- for the police department. 5 Q And what exactly is your role? 6 A If we're discussing this case, my role was going 7 to be to help locate the gentleman that had a warrant in 8 this incident. 9 Q And how do you get called in to do that? 10 A What happened in this case was, Detective 11 Spenotto from our WATF, which is the Warrant Apprehension 12 Unit, apparently interviewed somebody -- got a phone 13 number. He then responds down here to the Circuit Court, 14 sees Judge Barry Williams, and gets a Court Order signed. 15 He then sends the Court Order down to our 16 office, depending on what the carrier is, Verizon, Sprint, 17 T-Mobile, AT&T. We then send it to them. I ask for 18 subscriber information, call-detail records. 19 They provide us with GPS locations, in this 20 case. And once we get all the information, then we have 21 equipment that we can go out and locate cell phones. 22 Q Okay. When you say, we have equipment that we 23 can locate cell phones, you're talking about the Stingray 24 equipment, is that what was used in this case? 25 A Yeah, it's called the Hailstorm. It used to be
48 1 -- Stingray is kind of first generation. 2 Q Okay. when did the Hailstorm come in to be? 3 A Probably about two years ago. 4 Q Pretty sophisticated? 5 A I'd say, yes. 6 Q So, it doesn't just locate a phone, right? 7 A Well, I'm not sure what you're asking. 8 Q It means that you can go into someone's phone, 9 and grab all the data on that phone with the Hailstorm, 10 right? 11 A No. 12 Q Tell me what the Hailstorm does. 13 A What we get from the phone company is the 14 subscriber information. So, when we get the subscriber 15 information, it has a [sic] identifier on there, if you 16 will, a serial number. We put that into the Hailstorm 17 equipment. 18 And the Hailstorm equipment acts like a cell 19 tower. So, we go into a certain area, and basically, the 20 equipment is looking for that particular identifier, that 21 serial number. 22 Q Okay. And so, if a person is inside of a home, 23 that equipment peers over the wall of the home, to see if 24 that cell phone is behind the wall of that house, right? 25 A Yes.
49 1 Q And it sends an electronic transmission through 2 the wall of that house, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you get a separate search warrant for that 5 search into the home? 6 A You'd have to talk to Detective Spinatto about 7 that. Because he's the one that got the Court Order 8 signed. 9 Q Did you do the search? You conducted the 10 equipment in this -- you operated -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q -- the equipment? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you didn't have a -- did you have a warrant 15 in your hand to go into that address when you used the 16 Hailstorm machine to peer into -- lots of people's homes, 17 actually, right? 18 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Counsel, I mean, there's not a jury 20 here. 21 MS. LEVI: Um-hum. 22 THE COURT: -- I mean, I don't -- I mean, I 23 think I understand. It basically pings the phone. 24 MS. LEVI: Okay. 25 THE COURT: And there's an electronic device
50 1 going back -- I don't think anybody's peering in. If you 2 want to metaphorically refer to it, that's fine. I mean, 3 I don't think it necessarily hinders your legal argument 4 or not. But I think it's electronically, they send a 5 signal, just like when you call in your -- if you use your 6 cell phone in your house, it pings off a tower. 7 MS. LEVI: Well, let's -- if I may -- let's not 8 assume that, right. 9 BY MS. LEVI 10 Q Because you're familiar with putting a GPS 11 tracking device on a vehicle, right? 12 A No. 13 Q You've never done -- 14 A No. 15 Q -- anything like that? 16 A No, ma'am. 17 Q Tell me all of the information the Hailstorm can 18 retrieve from a phone. 19 A It's going to retrieve, like I said before, the 20 serial number of the phone, depending on what kind of 21 phone it is. It's going to -- there's [sic] different 22 identifiers. Like for Sprint, in this case, it's called 23 the MSID. And that's like a ten-digit -- like a ten-digit 24 number. So, it's retrieving that. And there's also the 25 electronic serial number. It's retrieving that. And
51 1 that's really it. 2 Q Can you capture the telephone calls as they're 3 being made? 4 A No. 5 Q And how do you know where the phone -- and it 6 doesn't capture any data on the phone? 7 A No. 8 Q Are you sure? 9 A Yes. 10 Q So, how do you get information about where the 11 phone is on the machine? 12 A Because when it captures that identifier that 13 you put into the machine or the equipment, it then tells 14 you -- it looks like a clock on the equipment. And it 15 tells you where the signal's coming from, like 12, 1, 2, 3 16 o'clock (indicating). 17 And it will give you like a reading. Like if it 18 says 1:00 at like an 80, well, then you know that you're 19 kind of close to it. But if it says 1:00 at like a 40, 20 then you know that you're probably within, I don't know, 21 probably, you know, 20 yards of it. 22 Q The person doesn't have to be using their phone 23 for you to get that information, do they? 24 A Actually, if they're on their phone, then 25 they're already connected to -- in this case, the Sprint
52 1 network. And we're not going to be able to pull them off 2 of that until they're -- until they hang -- until they 3 hang the call up. 4 Q So, they hang the call up. And the phone can be 5 in their pocket, right? 6 A Correct. 7 Q And then you're reaching in to grab an 8 electronic signal about where that phone is? It's not 9 pinging, in other words, right? 10 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 11 MR. HALEY: Right. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 MR. HALEY: Yeah, ma'am. Like I said before, 14 we're -- 15 BY MS. LEVI 16 Q I'm sorry, the question was, it's not pinging, 17 right? 18 A I don't understand pinging. 19 Q Pinging means that when a call is made, it will 20 ping to a cell tower, to let you know where the call is 21 coming from. That's not what -- 22 MS. O'HARA: Objection. 23 BY MS. LEVI 24 Q -- happens, right? 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
53 1 MR. HALEY: Like I said, our equipment acts like 2 a cell tower. So, it draws the phone to our equipment. 3 BY MS. LEVI 4 Q But you just said, if the person's on the phone, 5 your equipment won't work, right? 6 A Correct. 7 Q So, it doesn't act like a cell tower, because 8 you can find the phone only when they are not on the 9 phone, correct? 10 A Well, I would say it does act like a cell tower, 11 because the only time that you're going to connect -- the 12 only time that you're going to connect to the network, or 13 to a tower is when you go to try to use it. 14 Q But you're connecting to where the phone is, 15 when they're not on the phone, didn't you just say that 16 A Maybe I'm getting confused, or I'm not 17 understanding what you're asking me. 18 Q My question to you was, for example, I have my 19 phone in my pocket. And I'm sitting in my house, right? 20 A Okay. 21 Q And you want to know where I am, correct? 22 A Okay. 23 Q Yes? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you're driving through my neighborhood,