Priority-One Court Reporting Services Inc. A Veritext Company Page 1 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2

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1 Page 1 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY 2 3 ANDREW ZAKANYCH and JOAN ZAKANYCH Plaintiffs 4 -against- Index No. L THERMO FISHER SCIENTIFIC INC., f/k/a FISHER 6 SCIENTIFIC INTERNATIONAL INC., et al., Defendants 7 8 SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY 9 LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY 10 RAYMOND FELDNER and BARBARA FELDNER, Husband 11 and Wife Plaintiffs 12 Docket No. vs. L AMERICAN PREMIER UNDERWRITERS, INC., et al. 14 Defendants COURT OF COMMON PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY, PA ROBERT BLACKBURN, JR. Plaintiff 19 Asbestos Case vs. Term, March No ASBESTOS CORPORATION LIMITED, et al., 21 Defendants Videotaped Deposition Under 24 Oral Examination of JOHN REILLY 25

2 Page 2 1 Transcript of the videotaped 2 deposition of JOHN REILLY, called for Oral 3 Examination in the above-captioned matter, said 4 deposition being taken pursuant to the Federal 5 Rules of Civil Procedure by and before Michele 6 Cannata-Smith, Court Reporter and Notary Public 7 in and for the State of New York; taken at 8 Hyatt Regency Hotel, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 9 on March 1, 2011, commencing at 10:08 a.m

3 Page 3 1 I N D E X 2 3 JOHN REILLY PAGE 4 5 EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY 9 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLIAMS RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY E X H I B I T S NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE JOHN REILLY 1 A document - 9/7/71, JOHN REILLY 2 Fisher Scientific Catalog JOHN REILLY 3 Letter - 1/23/ JOHN REILLY 4 Fisher Scientific Catalog JOHN REILLY 5 A memo - 5/2/ JOHN REILLY 6 A letter - 10/11/ JOHN REILLY 7 A letter - 11/6/ JOHN REILLY 8 A memo - 11/22/

4 Page 4 1 E X H I B I T S (CONT.) 2 3 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 4 5 JOHN REILLY 9 A memo - 11/28/ JOHN REILLY 10 A memo - 12/4/ JOHN REILLY 11 A memo - 12/5/ JOHN REILLY 12 A letter - 12/11/ JOHN REILLY 13 A letter - 12/18/ JOHN REILLY 14 A memo - 4/9/ JOHN REILLY 15 A memo - 4/26/ JOHN REILLY 16 A memo - 6/28/ JOHN REILLY 17 A document - printed /29/ DEFT. REILLY 1 A resume - John Reilly DEFT. REILLY 2 A letter - 12/3/ DEFT. REILLY 3 A letter - 3/23/

5 Page 5 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 COHEN, PLACITELLA & ROTH 3 BY: GONEN HAKLAY, ESQ. Two Commerce Square Market Street, Suite 2900 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Appearing for the Plaintiffs 6 HINKHOUSE WILLIAMS WALSH, LLP BY: JOHN T. WILLIAMS, ESQ North Stetson Avenue, Suite 3400 Chicago, Illinois Appearing for the Defendant Fisher Scientific 9 McGIVNEY & KLUGER, PC 10 BY: WILLIAM J. BRYERS, ESQ Arch Street, 18th Floor 11 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Appearing for the Defendant 12 Duro-Dyne (Blackburn) 13 ECKERT SEAMANS CHERIN & MELLOTT, LLC 14 BY: WILLIAM B. PENTECOST, JR., ESQ. 600 Grant Street, 44th Floor 15 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Appearing for the Defendant 16 CBS (Blackburn) 17 PIETRAGALLO GORDON ALFANO BOSICK & RASPANTI, LLP 18 BY: PHILIP P. KEATING, ESQ. One Oxford Centre, 38th Floor 19 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Appearing for the Defendant 20 General Electric (Blackburn) 21 LAVIN, O'NEIL, RICCI, CEDRONE & DISIPIO BY: CAROLYN L. MCCORMACK, ESQ. 22 Suite North Independence Mall West 23 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Appearing via phone for the Defendant 24 3M Company (Blackburn) 25

6 Page 6 1 PATTON BOGGS LLP AMY D. CRISCUOLO, ESQ. 2 One Riverfront Plaza, 6th Floor Newark, New Jersey Appearing via phone for the Defendant Pharmacia fka Monsanto Company 4 SPEZIALI, GREENWALD & HAWKINS 5 BY: DAVID SPEZIALI, ESQ Winslow Road 6 Williamstown, New Jersey Appearing via phone for the Defendant 7 General Electric (Feldner) 8 MCELROY, DEUTSCH, MULVANEY & CARPENTER, LLP CHAD D. MOUNTAIN, ESQ John F. Kennedy Blvd Suite Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Appearing via phone for the Defendants 11 Chevron U.S.A., Inc., Valero Energy Corporation and Exxon Mobil Corporation HOAGLAND, LONGO, MORAN, DUNST & DOUKAS BY: SHAZIA CHAUDRI dewit, Esq Paterson Street New Brunswick, New Jersey Appearing via phone as national and local counsel for Fisher 16 Scientific, Mettler-Toledo (Feldner) 17 DINSMORE & SHOHL, LLP BY: DAVID SINGLEY, ESQ. 18 One Oxford Centre, 28th Floor Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Appearing via phone for the Defendant Minteq, Inc., incorrectly identified as a 20 wholly-owned subsidiary of Minerals Technologies, Inc. (Feldner) 21 HOFHEIMER GARTLIR & GROSS, LLP 22 BY: GARY N. SMITH, ESQ. 530 Fifth Avenue 23 New York, New York Appearing via phone for the Defendant 24 Rapid American Corp. (Blackburn) 25

7 Page 7 1 KELLEY, JASONS, MCGOWAN, SPINELLI & HANNA, L.L.P. BY: LIZA STAGLIANO, ESQ. 2 Two Liberty Place, Suite South 16th Street 3 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Appearing via phone for the Defendants 4 BayerCrop Science, FMC, Ingersoll Rand and Bechtel (Blackburn) 5 GOLDFEIN & JOSEPH 6 BY: JANET GOLUP, ESQ JFK Boulevard, 20th Floor 7 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Appearing via phone for the Defendant 8 Asbestos Corporation Limited (Blackburn) 9 10 ALSO PRESENT: MATT BERTLES, VIDEOGRAPHER

8 Page 8 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. My 2 name is Matt Bertles. I'm here on behalf of 3 Veritext Court Reporting Services. Today's date 4 is March 1, The time now is approximately 5 10:08 a.m. This deposition is being held at the 6 Hyatt, Pittsburgh, located at 1111 Airport 7 Boulevard, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 8 The caption of this case is Andrew and 9 Joan Zakanych versus Thermo Fisher Scientific, 10 et al; Raymond and Margaret Feldner versus 11 American Premier Underwriters, et al.; and 12 Robert Blackburn versus Asbestos Corporation 13 Limited, et al. 14 The name of the witness today is John 15 Reilly. At this time the attorneys will 16 identify themselves after which our court 17 reporter, Michele Smith, here on behalf of 18 Veritext Reporting, will swear in the witness 19 and we can proceed. 20 MR. HAKLAY: Gonen Haklay, attorney for 21 the Plaintiffs in all three of these cases from 22 Cohen, Placitella & Roth in Philadelphia. 23 MR. WILLIAMS: John Williams, 24 Hinkhouse, Williams, Walsh in Chicago for Fisher 25 Scientific.

9 Page 9 1 JOHN REILLY, after being duly called 2 and sworn, testified as follows: 3 MR. WILLIAMS: Gonen, let me just make 4 one statement for the record in terms of the 5 notice. Let me just object to the subpoena. 6 The subpoenas in the Zakanych and Feldner case 7 were not properly served and procedurally 8 defective. With respect to the Pennsylvania 9 case, the subpoena was defective in that there 10 was no witness fee provided to the witness, 11 among other things. And with respect to the 12 video, there was not a proper notice with 13 respect to videotaping the deposition pursuant 14 to Rule (b). 15 MR. HAKLAY: Okay. Well, we'll proceed 16 and your objections are on the record EXAMINATION BY MR. HAKLAY: Q. Good morning, Mr. Reilly. 21 A. Good morning. 22 Q. Let me introduce myself again. I know 23 we just met. My name is Gonen Haklay. I'm an 24 attorney with the law firm of Cohen, Placitella 25 & Roth.

10 Page 10 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. We represent the plaintiffs in three 3 different cases in which Fisher Scientific is 4 either the defendant or one of the defendants in 5 each of those cases. 6 The first is a case in which we 7 represent a couple named Andrew and Joan 8 Zakanych; the second is a case which we 9 represent Raymond and Barbara Feldner; and the 10 third is a case in which we represent a man who 11 is now deceased named Robert Blackburn, Junior. 12 Sir, have you ever had your deposition 13 taken before? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever appeared in any way in 16 any kind of court proceeding? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever given testimony in any 19 way that would be used in any kind of a legal 20 case? 21 A. No. 22 Q. All right. Well, let me give you a 23 couple of ground rules, and if at any time you 24 want to find out more about them, you just stop 25 and ask, okay? Even if I'm in the middle of a

11 Page 11 1 question or I just asked one before you answer. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. First, it's our goal that you only 4 answer questions you understand, okay? So if I 5 ask you a question and you do not understand it, 6 tell me you do not understand it, tell me you do 7 not know what I mean by that, tell me that 8 you're confused about that, tell me anything you 9 want that would indicate to me I should ask it 10 in a different way or a better way, okay? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Second, we don't want any wild guesses. 13 If I, for instance, ask you how long the 14 conference table is in the room next door, I 15 don't want you to guess because you don't know. 16 If I ask you how long each of these tables is 17 that we're sitting at right now, you probably 18 don't have a tape measure -- I don't know, but 19 you probably don't -- but you may very well be 20 able to give an approximation. If you can give 21 us an approximation, let us know that's what it 22 is and give it, but do not guess. 23 If, for instance, I ask you when 24 something happened, and you only know it 25 happened in the 1960s, that's the best you can

12 Page 12 1 do, the late 1960s or early 1960s, tell us that 2 and let us know you're approximating. If you 3 know exactly when it happened, tell us exactly 4 when it happened. 5 Third, because we have a court reporter 6 who's writing everything down, there's a couple 7 of things we need to do that are not normal for 8 conversation outside of a deposition. First, 9 even though you may know before I finish my 10 question what I'm going to ask and where I'm 11 going with a question, you have to wait for me 12 to finish so that we're not talking over each 13 other. And conversely, even though I know what 14 you're saying, I've got to wait to ask my next 15 question. So if we stop you and say, wait until 16 I finish my question, I'm not trying to be rude, 17 I'm just trying to create a good record. 18 Second, because everything is being 19 written down, people say uh-uh or uh-hum a lot. 20 We can't do that. You have to say yes or no if 21 that's the answer you intend to give. Just 22 because uh-uh and uh-hum look a lot like each 23 other when they're written down. 24 And, third, lawyers in the room may 25 enter objections to certain questions. It does

13 Page 13 1 not mean they're instructing you not to answer, 2 but they're creating a record that they feel 3 they need to create. If you hear a lawyer 4 entering an objection, you need to wait until 5 they're finished and then you can answer the 6 question unless instructed otherwise. Okay? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Do you have any questions? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. Are you represented by a lawyer 11 here today? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And who is that? 14 A. Mr. John Williams. 15 Q. Okay. Sitting to your right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And have you retained Mr. Williams? 18 MR. WILLIAMS: I'm representing 19 Mr. Reilly at this deposition, yes. 20 BY MR. HAKLAY: 21 Q. And have you retained Mr. Williams? 22 MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I object to the 23 form. To the extent the witness understands the 24 legal questions and legal implication. I'm 25 stating for the record that I have been retained

14 Page 14 1 to represent Mr. Reilly at this deposition. 2 BY MR. HAKLAY: 3 Q. Is that true, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And how long has Mr. Williams 6 represented you? 7 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. But 8 you can answer if you understand. 9 THE WITNESS: We met yesterday. 10 BY MR. HAKLAY: 11 Q. Okay. And is that when he started 12 representing you? 13 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 14 That calls for a legal conclusion. But you can 15 answer if you know. 16 THE WITNESS: I knew he represented me 17 several weeks ago via telephone conversations. 18 BY MR. HAKLAY: 19 Q. Okay. Who were those conversations 20 with? Don't tell me what was in them, tell me 21 who they were with. 22 A. With Mr. Williams and others. 23 Q. Who's the others? Who are the others? 24 A. Probably some employees of Fisher 25 Scientific -- Thermo Fisher.

15 Page 15 1 Q. Current employees? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who did you speak with that's a current 4 employee of Fisher Scientific? 5 A. Kathy Hartman and Edie Nataro. 6 Q. You don't have any idea how to spell 7 Nataro, do you? 8 A. I think it's N-A-T-A-R-O, I believe. 9 Q. Have you spoken with -- are either of 10 those people attorneys? 11 A. I believe Kathy Hartman is an attorney. 12 Q. For Fisher Scientific? 13 A. Thermo Fisher, yes, I believe. 14 Q. So there's no confusion, is Thermo 15 Fisher part of the current name of that company? 16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 17 Calls for speculation. You can answer if you 18 know. 19 THE WITNESS: I believe Thermo Fisher 20 is the proper name of that company now. That's 21 my belief. 22 BY MR. HAKLAY: 23 Q. Okay. If I say "Fisher Scientific", 24 will it be clear that whether I say "Fisher 25 Scientific" or "Thermo Scientific", I'm

16 Page 16 1 referring to the company that you used to work 2 for that has continued in some corporate form 3 until today, all right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And what about Edie Nataro, is she an 6 attorney? 7 A. I believe she's a paralegal. 8 Q. Does she work for Miss Ardman? 9 A. I don't know. 10 MR. WILLIAMS: Hartman. 11 BY MR. HAKLAY: 12 Q. Kathy Hartman. Have you spoken to 13 anyone else at Fisher Scientific? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who else have you spoken to other than 16 Mr. Williams, Miss Hartman and Miss Nataro? 17 A. My wife. 18 Q. Okay. Was she a former Fisher 19 Scientific employee? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Have you spoken to a Marc 22 Gaffrey? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Has anyone raised the issue of a 25 potential conflict of interest to you?

17 Page 17 1 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 2 THE WITNESS: No. 3 BY MR. HAKLAY: 4 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Williams in 5 addition to representing you here today -- 6 actually let me back off. 7 Are you currently an employee of 8 Fisher? 9 A. No. 10 Q. When did you stop being an employee of 11 Thermo Fisher? 12 A Q. In addition to representing you today, 14 are you aware that Mr. Williams also represents 15 the company Thermo Fisher? 16 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 17 It's leading and calls for speculation. You can 18 answer if you know. 19 THE WITNESS: I believe he is. 20 BY MR. HAKLAY: 21 Q. Okay. Can you tell us the highest 22 level of education you completed? 23 A. I have a Bachelor of Science degree 24 from Duquesne University here in Pittsburgh, 25 Pennsylvania.

18 Page 18 1 Q. Okay. And what year did you get that? 2 A Q. And what was your major? 4 A. Business administration. 5 Q. Did you have any minors that involved 6 scientific matters at all? 7 A. I may have had some basic chemistry. 8 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself a 9 scientist? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Have you ever had an employment in 12 which the core of that employment was as a 13 scientist? 14 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 15 It's vague. You can answer if you understand. 16 THE WITNESS: No. I was never employed 17 as a scientist. 18 BY MR. HAKLAY: 19 Q. Okay. When did you start working at 20 Fisher Scientific? 21 A. February of Q. What did you do between 1961 and 1972? 23 A. Well, I had other jobs before Fisher. 24 Q. Right. What did you do? Who did you 25 work for after college?

19 Page 19 1 A. After college -- let me think for a 2 minute. After college for a few years I was a 3 salesman. 4 Q. Do you remember what company you were a 5 salesman for? 6 A. Yes. US Rubber Company and Hunt 7 Wesson. 8 Q. And what did you sell? 9 A. Hunt & Wesson was tomato products and 10 US Rubber Company is tires, golf balls, 11 mattresses, rubber products. 12 Q. To your knowledge did the products you 13 sold at either of those companies contain any 14 asbestos? 15 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 16 Calls for speculation. But you can answer. 17 THE WITNESS: No. I don't know 18 anything about that. 19 BY MR. HAKLAY: 20 Q. Are those the two companies that you 21 worked for until 1972 or was there other 22 employment? 23 A. Other employment. I went to work in 24 the safety profession at Crum & Forster 25 Insurance Companies.

20 Page 20 1 Q. Where are they? 2 A. Well, I worked in Pittsburgh. I don't 3 know where they're headquartered. 4 Q. What was your job at Crum & Forster? 5 A. Safety engineer. 6 Q. And what did that entail? 7 A. Performing safety inspections at 8 potential clients to see if they were a good 9 risk or a bad risk. 10 Q. A good risk or bad risk for A. Insurance. 12 Q. Okay. And what kind of training did 13 you have to perform with a safety -- were they 14 safety tests? 15 A. On-the-job training. 16 Q. And what kind of test did you perform 17 at these companies that wanted to be clients of 18 Crum & Forster Insurance? 19 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean 20 by "test". 21 Q. What did you do when you would visit 22 these potential clients? 23 A. I physically went there and made an 24 inspection, a safety inspection. 25 Q. What kind of issues were you looking

21 Page 21 1 for when you made safety inspections? 2 A. Many, many issues that all related to 3 safety. Many. Numerous. 4 Q. Did those issues ever relate to dust? 5 A. No. 6 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 7 It's vague. 8 BY MR. HAKLAY: 9 Q. Did they relate to physical features 10 such as handrails or equipment and things like 11 that? 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. When you say you got on-the-job 14 training, who trained you? 15 A. My boss who was a safety engineer. 16 Q. Do you remember his name? 17 A. Yes, I do. Walter Betzler. 18 Q. And how long were you trained on the 19 job before you were permitted to go out by 20 yourself to any potential clients when you 21 worked for Crum & Forster Insurance? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 Q. How many years did you work for them? 24 A. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Two 25 years probably.

22 Page 22 1 Q. Okay. And do you remember about what 2 year you started working there? 3 A. I believe it was Q. Was that the last job you had before 5 you went to work for Fisher? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. Then let's stay on this one 8 first. On-the-job training, was there any 9 component of that that included reading 10 materials? 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. What kind? 13 A. Safety materials. 14 Q. Safety materials of these potential 15 clients or safety materials generally? 16 A. Both. 17 Q. Did you -- did Crum & Forster ask you 18 to take any classes in safety when you got 19 there? 20 A. I can't recall, but I don't believe so. 21 Q. Was this your first experience as -- in 22 the safety profession? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you ever taken any classes in 25 safety engineering or safety generally?

23 Page 23 1 A. Through the years, you mean? 2 Q. Sure. Ever. 3 A. Numerous. 4 Q. Okay. Did you ever take any before you 5 got to Fisher? 6 A. I'm not quite sure. 7 Q. Okay. When you were at -- when you 8 would visit someone, a potential client of Crum 9 & Forster, how long would you spend at any 10 potential client? 11 A. It depend on the size and the 12 complexity and the processes of the client. 13 Q. Could it be more than a day? 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. Could it be as little as an hour? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you ultimately get to make the 18 decision at Crum & Forster as to whether Crum & 19 Forster would accept A. I made the recommendation. 21 Q. You just have to let me finish the 22 question. 23 MR. WILLIAMS: You have to let him 24 finish the question. 25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.

24 Page 24 1 BY MR. HAKLAY: 2 Q. It's perfectly natural what you're 3 doing. You knew what I was going to say. 4 Did you ultimately make the call as to 5 whether the client, the potential client that 6 you visited, would become a Crum & Forster 7 client? 8 A. I made the recommendation to 9 underwriters. 10 Q. And they decided? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You said that you worked somewhere else 13 after Crum & Forster but before Fisher 14 Scientific. Where was that? 15 A. Koppers Company. 16 Q. Is that with a K? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What's the Koppers Company do? 19 A. I don't know what it does now. 20 Q. What did it do then? 21 A. When I worked there they -- chemical 22 plants, tar plants, coke oven batteries and 23 various other industrial plants. 24 Q. And what was your title there? 25 A. Division safety engineer.

25 Page 25 1 Q. What division? 2 A. Organic materials. 3 Q. What did that mean -- what did organic 4 materials mean at Koppers Company? 5 A. Tar companies. 6 Q. Anything else? 7 A. Coke oven batteries. Anything 8 pertaining to chemicals. 9 Q. And what did you actually do on a 10 day-to-day basis at Koppers Company? 11 A. I inspected their plants to make sure 12 that they were in safe and good condition and 13 did everything in my power to prevent 14 occupational injuries and illnesses to Kopper 15 employees. 16 Q. How many divisions were there? 17 A. I don't recall. It was a big company. 18 Q. More than one then? 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. Did you have a boss there? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Was there a head safety engineer 23 at Koppers Company at the time? 24 A. There were a couple. 25 Q. Did you report to one of those two?

26 Page 26 1 A. No. I reported to the same person that 2 they reported to. 3 Q. You reported to somebody above the 4 safety engineers? 5 A. The department head, yes. 6 Q. What department was he head of? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Okay. Do you remember his name? 9 A. No. 10 Q. That's fine. When you inspected 11 plants, what were you looking for? 12 A. Well, again, that depended on the 13 complexity and the type of plant. Some things 14 are basic, like handrails, fire extinguishers, 15 first aid supplies, eyewash fountains, deluge 16 showers, training, accident investigation 17 training, first aid training, housekeeping. 18 Anything that pertained to safety. 19 Q. Did Koppers Company provide you with 20 any specialized training for the job? 21 A. I believe when I was at Koppers Company 22 I graduated I believe -- I'm a little bit 23 confused on dates. OSHA came in to being in 24 April of 1971, so when I was at Koppers Company 25 I went to an OSHA training academy.

27 Page 27 1 Q. How long was that? 2 A. The course? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Probably two weeks. 5 Q. And what subjects did you study? 6 A. OSHA compliance, OSHA standards. 7 Q. In what area? 8 A. In every area that OSHA had a standard 9 for. 10 Q. Other than being sent to an OSHA 11 training academy, did Koppers Company provide 12 you with any other education and safety? 13 A. I probably went to a number of courses 14 that were conducted by the Western Pennsylvania 15 Safety Council. 16 Q. You say "probably". What do you mean? 17 A. Well, I'm not sure. It's a long time 18 ago. 19 Q. Are you saying you're not sure you ever 20 went or you're not sure who you worked for when 21 you went? 22 A. No, I went. So I'm not sure maybe who 23 I worked for when I went. 24 Q. So it might have been Koppers and it 25 might have been a different employer?

28 Page 28 1 A. It might have been Kopper and Fisher 2 both. 3 Q. And what did you study there at the 4 Western Pennsylvania Safety Council? 5 A. Well, it depended again. Accident 6 investigation, safety inspections, chemical 7 safety. Numerous. 8 Q. Did -- 9 A. OSHA standards. 10 Q. Before OSHA came into being, when you 11 worked at Koppers Company against what standard 12 did you measure the conditions you would see at 13 a Koppers Company plant? 14 A. Before OSHA came into being MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. It 16 assumes facts. But over my objection, you can 17 answer if you understand. 18 THE WITNESS: OSHA didn't make up 19 standards. OSHA became law and gathered 20 existing standards and made them law. So I went 21 by the existing standards. 22 BY MR. HAKLAY: 23 Q. The existing standards for what topics? 24 A. All topics in safety. 25 Q. Okay. What connection did you have

29 Page 29 1 with asbestos in safety while at Koppers 2 Company? 3 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 4 THE WITNESS: None. 5 BY MR. HAKLAY: 6 Q. That was not an issue at Koppers 7 Company? You have to answer out loud. 8 A. No. 9 Q. That's the only thing -- I'm sorry, in 10 addition to uh-uh and uh-hum, while we are 11 videotaping you are going like this, you have to 12 answer out loud so she can write it down. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Prior to going to Fisher Scientific had 15 you ever in any of your previous employment had 16 to deal with any asbestos-related issues? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Prior to going to Fisher Scientific had 19 any of your employers ever provided you with any 20 training in any subjects related to asbestos? 21 A. I'm not sure. I don't think they did 22 because that wasn't an issue. 23 Q. What do you mean "that wasn't an 24 issue"? 25 A. In the company I worked for, it was not

30 Page 30 1 an issue. 2 Q. Prior to -- excuse me, during your 3 undergraduate education at Duquesne, did you 4 take any classes that in any way related to 5 asbestos specifically? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you take any classes that related 8 in any way to toxic dusts? 9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 10 It's vague. If you understand you can answer. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not quite sure I 12 understand that question by what you mean "toxic 13 dust". Dust could be toxic to anybody if it 14 makes them sneeze. 15 BY MR. HAKLAY: 16 Q. Okay. Did you take any courses that 17 dealt with dust that made people sneeze while at 18 Duquesne? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you take any courses that dealt 21 with dust in any way at Duquesne? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you take any courses that dealt 24 with any toxic materials at Duquesne, dust or 25 otherwise?

31 Page 31 1 A. I believe I answered before that I took 2 basic chemistry at Duquesne. 3 Q. Is there anything about that course all 4 these years later that you remember more than 5 beyond generally? 6 A. No. 7 Q. That course, was that something you 8 used when you were at Koppers Company what you 9 learned in that chemistry class? 10 A. Generally. 11 Q. Did Koppers Company send you to any 12 classes to train you before they let you inspect 13 their plants? 14 A. It's hard to be specific about Koppers. 15 In the course of my safety career, I constantly 16 went to safety classes. Constantly. 17 Q. I think I'm asking something more 18 specific but apparently not well enough. You 19 testified that at the job you had before 20 Koppers, at Crum & Forster, your training was on 21 the job, correct? 22 A. Basically, yes. 23 Q. As opposed to a classroom-type 24 component, correct? 25 A. Basically, yes.

32 Page 32 1 Q. When you got to Koppers, when you first 2 got there, was your training on the job from 3 somebody senior to you or was there a classroom 4 component before they would let you inspect 5 their plants? 6 A. Both. I believe -- I believe I 7 answered before I went to OSHA training academy 8 while at Koppers. 9 Q. And did that OSHA training have 10 anything to do with asbestos? 11 A. No. 12 Q. When you said before that it dealt with 13 all OSHA standards, did you mean all OSHA 14 standards that were relevant to Kopper Company 15 plants? 16 A. No. I meant all OSHA standards that 17 were law. 18 Q. Okay. So whenever you did this 19 training was before OSHA issued standards on 20 asbestos? 21 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes. 23 BY MR. HAKLAY: 24 Q. Before you got to Fisher did you ever 25 get any training at all in asbestos?

33 Page 33 1 A. No. 2 Q. Before you -- I asked you what 3 standards you tested against before OSHA 4 standards existed. Were the standards you 5 tested against that you told me were later 6 compiled into OSHA standards, were those written 7 down before the OSHA standards? 8 A. Oh, absolutely. 9 Q. And where were they written down? 10 A. In books, in book form. One of them is 11 the National Fire Protection Association 12 published standards. 13 Q. Were those private or governmental 14 standards; do you know? 15 A. Private. 16 Q. Were all the standards against which 17 you did your job before OSHA standards came into 18 being, were those all private standards? 19 A. Basically, yes. 20 Q. Did you receive any classroom-type 21 training on those standards before you had to 22 apply them at Koppers and Company? 23 A. Again, I went to numerous, numerous, 24 numerous classes during my career. And, you 25 know, I just don't remember exact dates.

34 Page 34 1 Q. As you sit here, can you remember 2 whether or not you attended such classroom-type 3 training while still at Koppers and Company? 4 A. I think I did. 5 Q. You've stated that at Koppers and 6 Company none of the training was in asbestos. 7 Was there -- did you undergo any training in 8 dusts while at Koppers and Company? 9 MR. WILLIAMS: Object to the form. 10 It's vague. You can answer if you understand. 11 THE WITNESS: Specifically dust, no. 12 BY MR. HAKLAY: 13 Q. Did you receive training in accident 14 investigation? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. From whom? 17 A. Numerous agencies. Allegany County 18 Bomb Threat, Pittsburgh Fire Department, Western 19 Pennsylvania Safety Council. 20 Q. When you were at Koppers did you 21 receive any certifications? 22 A. I don't know if you call them 23 certifications. I certainly received diplomas 24 from completing the courses. 25 Q. Were you a certified safety inspector?

35 Page 35 1 A. CSP, no. 2 Q. Have you ever been a certified safety 3 inspector? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Have you ever attempted to take 6 whatever course work or testing as required to 7 become a certified safety inspector? 8 A. No. 9 Q. I take it that none of your employers 10 ever required you to do so, correct? 11 A. No, they did not. 12 Q. When you were at Koppers were all the 13 plants you were in charge of inspecting, were 14 they all in the Greater Pittsburgh area? 15 A. No. 16 Q. How far afield did you get to travel? 17 A. Well, I went to Minneapolis/St. Paul to 18 coke oven batteries. I went to Youngstown, Ohio 19 to a tar plant. 20 Q. Wherever your division had plants you 21 went? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And how long would you spend at these 24 plants doing your inspections? 25 A. Depending on the size and the