Mia og Johan. B: Because everywhere there is some people there, you know, are racist and everywhere.

Transcription

1 Bilag 2 Mia og Johan I: We are writing a project about a small village called Neve Shalom it s a village who try to live all people together like all cultures and religious backgrounds living in peace with each other. We were wondering if you thinks it s possible to do that like all around Israel, or is it too much of a conflict. M: All around? No. I: Why? B: Because everywhere there is some people there, you know, are racist and everywhere. M: In a certain point of view you can t really change it. I: Okay. So you think it is more like a racist problem? M: Of course. Racist, racist. Just look everywhere. It is there. (Laughter) I: Is it because they can t forget the past? J: It s something you have to change since birth, do you know what I mean? You got to grow into a new role into a new world. M: When you grow up it s in your childhood you hear one thing and that is what you know. You can t really change it. That is what you know, that is what it is. I mean, my mama did told me that, that what it is. There is nothing else. And it s really hard to let go from something you grow up with. It s stocking inside your head. I: Can we ask you if you are religious? J: Jewish. I: Jewish? Okay. And have experienced, yourself, like any kind of racism living here. J: In Israel? A problem with being Jews? No. I: No? J: Because in Israel it is the Jews country, it s a Jewish place. M: (interrupts) For now. Hahaha for few more years. 1

2 J: So here you don t have racism against Jews. I: Okay, so it s the other way around? J: Yes, but in the states I have felt it. I: Okay. How long have you lived in Israel? J: Since I was 3 years old. In spring break and stuff. I just got to go to the States to work. I: Do you believe that there could ever be like a peace project coming through or is it like never going to happened? J: It s very complex because right now for example the Palestinians, the Hamas in Gaza, they teach the kids since birth to hate, so so as I said before, you have to grow into peace and love. M: Yeah, but if you go to Dimona the kids over there is very primitive course they grow up in a very old-fashioned way and they grow up with the same hatreds, by the way. J: They grow up with hatreds to all kind of different stuff. It s not only against the Arabs or something like that. They grow with hatreds to gay people. To everything they don t know. M: Yes that s true. J: But ehh When you say this you properly meant the Israeli/Palestinian problem. I: Yes. J: And the problem is that they are teaching the kids to hate. When I grow up in Israel, since, I said 3 years old, in Tel Aviv, no one told me that you have to hate Arabs or something like that. So.. I have no problem to accept them, but they have problems to accept me! Do you know what I mean? I: But what about the Muslims in Tel Aviv for example? J: I have no problem with them! Here s a mosque. I: And they don t have any problems with the Jews? M: On the surface, no. But one goes back to his own place on the end of the day and you know. You keep it inside. The things comes out in night behind the walls. I: Are there difference on Jewish people, like where they come from as a Jew? Do you know what I mean? Like if you are a European or M: Of cause, that was what I meant people there grow up in the South in the Dimona, they are very primitive. They have the racism between our self. Of course. Like I m half Austrian and 2

3 half Moroccan and the side, that come, from Morocco is very primitive and old-fashion. You hear on it every day that there are racism between Jews, you have Ashkenazi Jews, European Jews. You have it inside, so you can never have peace when you have it between yourself. I: So do you think that peace will come from the people and not from the government? J: The government have to M: To be replaced! Unfortunately that didn t happen. J: It s hard to answer it. It have to come from everywhere you know. The government needs to teach through love and peace and ehm... the school system and everything. It s not only the people cause you don t wake up one day and then you love everyone. I: So it s have to come through the school system? J: From everywhere. From the parents, from the neighborhood, from the school system, from the media, from everywhere. I: So you are unhappy with Netanyahu? J: I hate him. I: Okay. Why? J: Why? Because I think he is doing nothing. J: He was prime minister, this is his four and a half time now. And he did nothing. All this time. Nothing, just nothing! I: He just talks. J: Exactly. I don t like him. I: So you feel like he is promising things that never happens? J: In this selection he didn t promise shit. He promised nothing and people still elected him. I: Why do you think that people still M: Because they are scared. I: Are they scared from the alternative? J: No. They are afraid because of the ehh M: Iran (Laughs) 3

4 M: What do you think? I am curious. I: Honestly I don t really like Netanyahu. And it s really odd because the people we talked to don t seem to like him either. M: Where have you been? Which cities, because if you only been in Tel Aviv. I: No we been in Jerusalem as well, and Neve Shalom. J: Really? Jerusalem, he got a lot of votes there! In Jerusalem he got most of the votes, and also in the south. I: it seems like people talk about how they vote at the selection and it seems like if they vote something else, it is not accepted in their community. If you know what I mean. J: I don t think ehh. I don t think so, cause first of all, you can lie. (Laughs) You can say you voted for Netanyahu and vote for whatever you want. I: Do you talk much about what you vote? J: I talk because I am proud of what I vote. I voted for Yesh Atid. Do you know this party? This is what I believe. I believe in this guy I believe he wants to make change. M: Yes but I told you so. One person you actually believe the most, but I voted Herzog because he is the only person who actually has a chance to put Bibi out, and that wasn t enough. I: During an election like this, do you feel that you have enough information about all the parties and what they stand for? M: Everybody lies. They all ehh. All the media just... Each channel, each paper has his own, like this is the Bibi paper, this is the Bibi channel and they put whatever they want people to hear and it s not the truth. J: But around the world it s the same. M: Of course. J: But here they have a magic bunny in his hat, you know. And he When the time is right he knows to take the scare card out and then frightening people. I: Did Netanyahu say exactly what he likes to do to change things or is it just in the talking process still? J: No. He said nothing. M: He talks a lot, but he says nothing. 4

5 J: But he didn t say what he was going to do with the peace process or what he is going to do with the peace process or the economy. M: He said nothing. J: In this selection he said nothing. I: It is so surprising that people voted for him. J: You know, first you think of all the life. And people is scared. Because it s how can I say it the Palestinians don t want us here. They think that Tel Aviv and Jaffa and everywhere should be theirs. If you give them a finger, they want the whole hand. Ehh. Because in the past for example, we had the primeminister Barak. And he he gave them almost everything that they wanted, but they didn t sign the papers. I: They wanted more? J: They wanted more. They wanted the refugees to come back to the land. M: It is not different from what there is happened in the entire universe. They say it out loud. That is the only religion there supposed to be in the world, in their opinion. And they are heading to it, you know. (Laughs) J: There are so many opportunities to start something, to take something to start building their own country. But they didn t do that. They didn t sign the papers when the time was right. They scream we want Palestine to exist, but they don t sign yet. So this is the problem you know. Everything you give them, they want more. I want to live in peace. I want to give them Jenin, Ramallah and whatever. Cause I have nothing there, never been there, never going to be there. But still they want more. They want Jerusalem for example. We can t give them Jerusalem. I: No that is the holiest place there is here. J: Yes and we. Through the history everyone there wanted to come to Jerusalem and Christian, Muslims whatever they have access for Jerusalem. We never denied access to Jerusalem. But if you give them access to Jerusalem, we will not have access to Jerusalem. For example you know like I don t have access to Jenin. But there are Palestinian coming to work in Tel Aviv, there are no Israeli there are going to work in Jenin. And we can t give them the only access to Jerusalem. It s like fight for the war. For Christian, for Jews, for Muslims.. I: Everyone. J: And eh it s complex it is. It s not let s love everyone let s open border and M: In an ideal world you wish for it. 5

6 J: In an ideal world you have no border and you can go, whenever, wherever, however. But it s not like that. We are a small country, there are surrounded by our opposite. They don t like us. You know. I: But you wasn't afraid enough to vote for Netanyahu? J: I don t believe in Netanyahu. I think that no matter who s matter who going to be there, we have the same chief of the army; we have the same chief of police. People that know what they are doing in this specific areas. And they are people there are going to stay in their jobs you know. It doesn t matter who gets the report.. If it s going to be Netanyahu or Herzog, it doesn t matter. So, I know who ever who is going to be there are going to make the right decisions the right choices for the Israeli people. It doesn t matter who it is. But Netanyahu did nothing. But it is charismatic. You know, he knows how to talk. I: Yes he sure does. J: He knows how to sway people. So this is our problems. I: How do you feel about, a big part of the Israeli economic goes to military sources. J: We have to do it. It s not like we have a choice. You got. We have to have a strong army. Cause you never know where the next attack is going to come from. M: Otherwise we won t be able to stay J: Like in the eh. Like in all of our wars you know Syrian and Lebanon and Egypt, they all come together against us. So it s we have peace with Egypt, we have peace with Jordan, but still you know. It s like it s like we respect them, but we keep suspicious. I: do you think there is any way to solve the conflict. Do you think it would work if Palestine gets a country and Israel stays.. M: they want more. I: they just want more? It can t be solved? J: I think that someone need to come, need to come and say like... to cut... to put border and the.. But the problem is the matter what we do, the matter what we give them they won t sign it. We have history together you know. We gave them. We gave them all of Ramallah. Before we start building such and such places, they had this land. They didn t sign it. I: So you think you need someone from the outside and say, this is how it s going to work? J: Something like that, something like that. M: When you had the British over here, it didn t really. 6

7 J: The British? Yes but I: But you want help from the outside? It can t be solved from the Israel alone? J: The problem with help from outside is that everyone wants to help to be on your side, you know. We want someone to be on our side and leave us with Jerusalem and whatever as much as land as we can and they want the same. No one is really objective. I: We have talked to someone who said that to solve this problem there has to be a catastrophe and he said that this, Netanyahu won the selection, was the catastrophe. M: We are heading there. (Laughter) J: In small steps. I: So you think it like going to explode J: I don t think it s going to explode. M: I don t think there are going to be a country in 5 years. J: No M: Just wait I: We see J: Israel will exist. M: There are going to be a country, it depends on who are going to be here though. J: It s not an easy thing, you can t talk about it over here you know, but.. M: When people lose faith it takes a social issue that you have here. You gets desperate, you can t survive. You can t live with your proud finish the month. When you get that low in this place, you don t The army here, you want to go joining the army and fight for your country, cause this is the assents. And when you don t have what to fight for... you don t give a shit, and some point you just loose it, and if you take ehh, how do you say it. If you go twice a year, and Do what you do because you have to be prepared all the time, to the real time, when you need to go. You don t give a shit, you don t want to go, like, okay I did my time, that s it. Fuck it. Except money, that it s good money when you go. If they go twice, three times a year and do the thing, do the practice and everything, they don t really You just don t care in some point. Like why should I fight, for what? 7

8 J: Most of our resources, all the money the government takes? You know taxes and stuff go to the army for example, and then the health system collapse, and the economy collapse, and everything is expensive, and everything have another taxes on it, Like fuel, do you know how much we pay for fuel? We pay about almost 2 dollars for one liter. I: That is actually the same in Denmark, but we also have high taxes on our houses. I think it s around the same. J: This is for example you know. Everything, we have. M: But then you have the minimum. I: We don t have the military to pay for, so we have to. All the taxes go to J: But the money goes to? I: School. J: To health system, and school, and you know, good education, and Here most of the money goes to, defend our self. And then. What you want to say that the health system collapse, and you have no money, and you just live day after day, and then you're like, I don t give a fuck. You know. I don t give a fuck. I can t, nobody can t. M: It s just inside the government that actually gets payed like what? shekel a month. J: More like M: And each year, like, the raises 1000 shekels. There are very poor people and there are very rich people. J: It s going there. You know, the difference between the people, we are heading to be like Mexico. J: But I like this country. I: We talked with someone who knew about Neve Shalom. They thought that they gave up their identity living by Jews living like that. They thought that they gave up their Jewish identity by living in Neve Shalom. M: It s just a matter of time, because in some point you have kids, you have holidays coming and you can t really dismiss your identity, because you are who you are from where you came from, you can t... It s, beautiful to hear that you have someone who try s... J: It s so small. It s still week. M: It s too pretty to be Realistic. 8

9 I: So they live in their own bobble, or J: Yes, you know, 200 people. It s nothing. M: I think it s just a matter of time. I: But they actually making schools where they teach other people from all over Israel how they do it, how they communicate with each other to make it work. But you don t think they have a chance to get through? M: In the long term no. If you go here to Jaffa you have the school and it s beautiful, you have Arabs, Jews and Africans studying together, and yes you have people working believing they can live in harmony and it s beautiful, but in the long term if you take the summer that we had First issue there comes up, the trues come out, you know what I mean? You can t really continue living in this bobble cause you have the real world also, and unfortunately I don t think Maybe I hope I will. I don t think it s really can. The purpose is to be yourself and accept the other, not to lose who you are, and live like you don t have your you don t have who you are. That s why I think it can t. I can t just give up my identity, that s who I am. My grandfather was in the Holocaust, I am not just going to forget that just so I can live in harmony with a person, because if I forget that, it s just going to continue again. And you know. It means rising again it s just a matter of time the way the world continues that we are heading there. And if it s not be with Jewish, it s going to be with someone else, because the hatreds is there. No matter, unfortunately no matter what you do, it s there. The purpose is, you have to be in your own area, to accept the other. I: So you think it would help if you had borders? Or would it still be a conflict between two countries? M: Probably. They find other issues. After a while. J: When you get to the first step, you want to move on to the next step. And why to stop in Ramallah if you can have Tel Aviv? And why to stop in Tel Aviv if M: Yeah because I m here and they are there. I want to go back and forth, I want also what they are having. And you know that is okay, so it s not enough for me the place. J: There is no.. eh.. formula. There is no formula, what they want. They don t know what they want; they want Israel, to be Palestine. It s not that they want independents in their own regions. they want they want Israel. M: They were here, it was their land. Before we come to this land in 48. J: Yes, but if you go to the bible, so M: If you go back exactly, that is the whole issue. You can t really have a solution. 9

10 J: It s not like we have another place to go to. This is the Jewish land. You know. We have nowhere in the world. There is no other place. If you go till the Muslim, they have like half the world and the other half belong to the Christians. But we have nowhere else. We have this five-hour drive land to live in. from the north to the south. This is what we have. We have to fight for it. We have to we can t go back to be small communities all around the world. Cause it didn t work. We have holocaust, you know. So the main point is, that we had the opportunity to sign. But I didn t want Bibi because he's not willing to talk. You have to make a prettier picture that you are willing to talk, because if not, the world hate you. All around the world the anti-semitism are rising again. Because in the last few years Bibi have not been able to talk to anyone. The politicians have to be politician. We have to pretending, even if you don t believe in it. I: Like Netanyahu? J: Yes, but he is not pretending. He just saying no. for example. When Rabbin, the prime minister that got murdered, was alive, he gave them, he tried, he talked, but nothing got out of it. He gave, he offered exchange for land, whatever stuff they didn t want it. We had the opportunities. You know what I mean. But when he talked, when he pretended to do something, the word was okay with Israel, the world accepted us, the world liked us. You got to play the game. Do you know what I mean? But Bibi doesn t play the game. I: So now he just pushing the rest of the world away? J: Yes. This is our main problem. This is why I didn t vote for him. You got to hug the world. You have to get the support from the world. You got to show that you are willing to talk, that you are willing to negotiate, that you are willing to do something. And then maybe you get the respect from the world back. And he is not doing that. I know that there is no solution. I want to believe in it, but it s hard. But you got to play the game. I: At least pretend. J: At least pretend. And if they sign, I be d the happiest dude ever, you know. I: Would you trust them if they sign? J: Right now we are dealing with terrorism. We are dealing with people that have no country. That, they are hiding behind kids after they have throwing missiles. And when you are trying to do anything, something, whatever, they show pictures, that you are killing kids. But they are hiding we are defending our kids. They are hiding after them. And when you show this pictures you get.. ehh.. you get bad vibes from yourself and from the world. But if they are going to have a country, they are going to have military, they are going to have police officer, they are going to have whatever. If we are going in a situation like war or something like that, we are dealing with another country. You are not dealing with civilians, with terrorism. So if they do something after they sign, they have a country, you can do something back. If they are throwing missiles, you can do something back, because you are not dealing with people there have no land, you know. We are dealing with a country, a different country. You don t have these problems. 10

11 I: No, it s hard for us to understand. J: Yes, it s very hard, cause think that a group of Jews in your country decide that they want independents. And you are going to do like, what the fuck. (laughs) But then they are going to do terrorism. But then they are going to bomb busses, they going to throw missiles, they going to exploding buildings, they going what are you going to do? I: It s impossible. J: Why? They want independents. Think about it. You are going to hide? You are going to give them border? But then, what s going to make them want more land. I: It s impossible to imagine. J: It is very easy to be judgmental from the outside, cause I can t explain how we live here. Cause every two years we have a situation with suicide bombers or the Palestinians starts to stab bus drivers in Jerusalem, or a tractor there trying to run over people It s hard, it s hard. It s very complex. They are teaching, Hamas are teaching kids to hate. They don t study math s or history or English, they are teaching them to mix bombs. It looks like they are preparing a little army, you know what I mean. Like. I want peace. I want to give them wherever they are living now, and I want nothing to do with them. I have nothing with them, like I have nothing with you. I like you, you are very nice. But I have nothing with you, you know. We have no complex. No argument. So I want the same with them. But it seems like they don t want the same with me. The world have to go in Gaza, the world have to see what s in Gaza or Ramallah. They have to go and see that. The people there comes and show the pictures, it s not exactly the right or the true pictures. I: We see that in Denmark, very much. We actually mostly see the Israelis people is like the victim or like the enemy. They are not really objective. We don t see it from both sides. It s either way. J: You don t see the real picture. You are seeing whatever the media is showing you. And if the people don t like us, you are going to see kids die. And if they like us, you are going to see missiles in Tel Aviv. So it s hard to judge whatever there is happening here. It s not like. You got to live here in the bad time, not like now where the sun comes out. You have to live here in the bad time and to see what happens, to see what we see. And then maybe, maybe you can judge. Maybe. I: But even then it would be complicated. J: Yes, we are grown in to it. To hate, to wars, to not fun. Not fun at all. And every person have a different view. In Israel also. You can talk to a guy who going to say: We need to kill them all. You can get to some people like know: we have to live together, hug them and if they shout at us give them flowers or, you know. (Laughs) I: I don t think that s the way to do it. 11

12 J: Me neither, but they have 5 seats in the government now. I: The whole system in the selection, it s so difficult. So many parties and J: Too many. I: Do you believe in the Israeli democracy? J: I believe in the democracy, but I don t believe in the system. The way that there are for example in the states, you have two parties. Democrats and the republican. Here you have the, shas religious party, and you have the Arabic party, and you have the one for flowers (laughs), and you have all kind of parties. To many, so this is why the government looks like that. For example Netanyahu have to take all the extreme from the right side of the demographic of Israel to build his government. And he have to bribe them. It s like, be with me and I give you the health budget, or the education budget. It s like you have to bribe people to support you. So, I don t believe in the system. We need to have two parties. We need to have one to say, let s kill them and one to say, let s talk to them and that s it! I: It s too hard to vote? J: It s too hard to vote. People don t know what to vote for. I talked to friends, they didn t know what to vote for. I tried to convince them to whatever I believe. Some got the ideals and some didn t. Too many choices. When you go for vote, people jumps for you, vote for us, vote for us 12