MONEY BOX LIVE. Presenter: RUTH ALEXANDE R. TRANSMISSION: 10 th APRIL RADIO 4

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1 THIS TRANSCRIPT IS ISSUED ON THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS TAKEN FROM A LIVE PROGRAMME AS IT WAS BROADCAST. THE NATURE OF LIVE BROADCASTING MEANS THAT NEITHER THE BBC NOR THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE PROGRAMME CAN GUARANTEE THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION HERE. MONEY BOX LIVE Presenter: RUTH ALEXANDE R TRANSMISSION: 10 th APRIL RADIO 4 ALEXANDER: Hello. The cost of childcare keeps rising - at double the rate of inflation last year according to the Daycare Trust. It says parents with older children are seeing the steepest price increases. On average families with two children are paying nearly 4,000 to have them looked after before and after school, while a full time nursery place for young children costs 11,000 a year. No surprise then that some people s wages go entirely on paying for childcare and others give up work because the sums just don t add up. In the Budget the Government announced a new scheme to help parents with this expense, but will it make enough of a difference for you? So today Money Box Live is looking at the cost of childcare - how to reduce it and what help you might get in paying for it. You can call us now with your question on With me today to answer your questions are Parveen Akhtar from the Money Advice Service; Anand Shukla, Chief Executive of the Daycare Trust; and Helen Harvey from Nannytax, an organisation which helps nannies and their employers sort out the financial ins and outs of their contracts. And the first question is from Thomasine who s calling from London. Thomasine, what s your question? THOMASINE: Oh hi. We receive childcare vouchers at the moment under the current scheme to pay for breakfast club and after school care for three children, so we re not going to be eligible under the new scheme as our children will be too old but we ll still need to pay for that breakfast club and after school care until So what I want to know is should we try and take the maximum value now and stockpile as many vouchers as we can under the current scheme and will we still be able to 1

2 spend them once that scheme has been scrapped? ALEXANDER: Okay, Anand Shukla from Daycare Trust, I ll come to you on this. But, first of all, would you just outline what this new scheme that was announced in the Budget was. What are the details? SHUKLA: Sure, well the details are still quite sketchy. We haven t actually seen the paper, More Affordable Childcare, which she s referring to, but we ve had a general statement which says that from the Autumn of 2015 a new funding support system will be launched which will provide 1200 per child as long as all the parents in the family are in work and are paying taxes and don t get any kind of tax credit support to help for their childcare. It s only going to be eligible initially for 0 to 5, so Thomasine is quite right - her children are going to be too old at that stage. The Government has said that it plans to extend it until the age of 12, but it s yet to outline a timetable for that. Now what they ve also said is that they will still have the current childcare voucher scheme running in parallel. ALEXANDER: And this is a salary sacrifice scheme? SHUKLA: That s a salary sacrifice scheme, that s quite right. So from what we know of the scheme - and as I say the details are still quite sketchy - both schemes will run in parallel. You won t be able to join both - that s the first thing. Now in terms of you know Thomasine your specific queries about taking maximum vouchers now, stockpiling them, I think it s difficult to say what the best approach is. I would talk to your voucher company initially because I know that they are giving advice to people that get vouchers now and see what they are saying at the moment. ALEXANDER: She doesn t have to stockpile though, does she? It sounds like she could carry on with her existing scheme which would run up until her children are 15. Is that right? SHUKLA: That s our understanding of the scheme, but there s still a lot more detail to come out yet. 2

3 ALEXANDER: Parveen Akhtar from the Money Advice Service - as Anand was just saying there, there s still detail to come out. Can we be sure that employers who offer the childcare voucher scheme at the moment will continue to? AKHTAR: Well lawyers are not under any obligation lawfully to be providing the scheme. And if they are part of the scheme, if it s a contractual agreement between the employer and the employee, it depends on what the terms of those contracts are and they can be revised when both parties want to sit down and discuss those. At the moment, as Anand s just said, they cannot run parallel with the new scheme that s maybe looking at coming from Autumn of If, as Thomasine says, she s part of that scheme, what she could do is contact her current provider; check if she does stockpile, if she chose to stockpile would they be valid, is there an expiration date for when she needs to get these vouchers by or use them by. She would also need to check with her employer to see if they d agree to that as well. ALEXANDER: Okay, thank you very much. Thomasine, hopefully that gives you some ideas of where to go to to find out more information. Oh and Anand, you d like to add another point. SHUKLA: Just a general point really following on from what Parveen just said and I think it s quite an important one. One of the drawbacks of the current scheme is you can only get childcare vouchers if your employer offers it. It s an arbitrary benefit in that sense. ALEXANDER: And how many employers do offer it? SHUKLA: Well from what we understand of Treasury figures, it s something like 5% of employers ALEXANDER: (over) Very few. SHUKLA: although that covers a much larger percentage of the working 3

4 population, something like 50%. The new scheme does not depend upon your employer offering it and also self-employed people will be able to get advantage of that childcare support which currently they cannot. ALEXANDER: Helen Harvey from Nannytax, you want to come in there. HARVEY: The only thing I was going to say was with regard to stockpiling them, my only thing was beware because obviously you can t cash them back in. So if your circumstances change and you find you don t need after school care in the future, you then will not be able to cash those vouchers in and you ve lost that money, so there is a little bit of a beware there about stockpiling. ALEXANDER: So there s a time limit on the vouchers? HARVEY: Not there s a time limit, but if your circumstances change and you no longer require childcare ALEXANDER: (over) I see, you ve already paid for it. HARVEY: yeah if your circumstances change - you decide you don t want to work anymore or your children don t want to go to the after school club and you find there s some other activity - you may be in a position where you ve got nothing to cash those vouchers in and then you ve lost that money. ALEXANDER: And Thomasine s youngest child is 7. Looking 8 years into the future no-one really knows what s going to happen in 8 years. Okay, thank you all for those answers. Liz is on the phone. Liz, you re calling from Cardiff. What s your question? LIZ: Hi, good afternoon. I m a full time mature student living in Cardiff. I ve got two children aged 2 and 4 and their childcare currently costs me about 98 a day. As a student obviously I don t work, so I can t use the salary sacrifice scheme - we can 4

5 only get that benefit from my husband s wage - yet I am assessed against my husband for any student maintenance and as such I don t get anything. It doesn t sound as if as a student trying to better myself with a career change, I d actually qualify for this 1200 either. I also don t get the 15 hours a week for my 4 year old because I m in Cardiff and this scheme for a 3 year old works slightly different in South Wales. Can the panel suggest how or what help I can actually get because the childcare costs are absolutely crippling? ALEXANDER: Parveen Akhtar from the Money Advice Service. AKHTAR: Well in the first instance, Liz, what I would definitely be looking at suggesting is if you go onto our website, which is the Money Advice Service website, there is a tool on there - that s claim all benefits that you re entitled to - and the link to it is moneyadviceservice.org.uk/babybenefits. LIZ: Yeah. AKHTAR: And it also allows there s other tools also for parents who are students. There s tools and calculators and it will also again guide you to benefits, grants, fundings that might be available within your locality, within your area, so you can also check that. In addition I would also suggest maybe contacting the You mentioned you re at university, did you say? LIZ: Yes. AKHTAR: Checking with the university s student and finance because there s sometimes a lot of help and support available provided by universities and the student body. LIZ: They gave me a 500 bursary during my first year, but obviously that doesn t even cover 5

6 ALEXANDER: Well when you re paying 100 a day for care, that covers one week, doesn t it? LIZ: Yeah, exactly. I ve also gone through the Student Loans Company, etcetera, to try and get help, but because they assessed me against my husband, it were just a dead end route. The assessment s very tight. ALEXANDER: I just want to come to Anand Shukla from the Daycare Trust at this point. I mean that is a staggering amount what Liz is having to pay for childcare. Just give us an idea of the sorts of costs people are facing and is there a way of paying less than that? 100 a day for two children for a student, it s unmanageable. SHUKLA: It s crazy, isn t it? You know we have in this country some of the highest childcare costs in the world. Daycare Trust carries out a survey looking at the price that people have to pay for childcare in the UK. We ve been doing it for many years now and what we ve seen over the last 10 years is that the price paid by parents has risen by 77% while salaries in that period of time have stayed the same, so it s taking a much bigger slice out of parents wages. And just to give you an idea of the cost of childcare - this is just for 25 hours a week - the average cost throughout Britain works out at something like 5,500 a year. That s just for part time childcare. If you re looking at full time childcare, that s obviously double that - 11,000. And that masks a whole range of variations. Places like London and the South East are particularly expensive as well. Childminders also aren t a particularly low cost option. The average weekly amount paid by parents for childminders is in the region of just under 100 a week, so again you re talking about over 5,000 a year. So this is a huge amount that parents are having to find. We know talking to parents that it s often larger than their rent, larger than their mortgage, and they re having to make real sacrifices to pay for the cost of childcare, which, as Liz has just said, you know kind of is helping people to improve their own circumstances, it s supporting people to get into work. It s a real problem for parents and you know it harms the country by having such high childcare costs. ALEXANDER: Helen Harvey from Nannytax, at the higher income scales people do 6

7 employ nannies. What s the cost of that? HARVEY: That is obviously more expensive if looked at in isolation. But actually in Liz s case in sort of the outer reaches of the country, so we re saying the average price currently for employing a nanny who is live out would probably be around about 540 a week. So yes that s over the 100 a day, but she may be able to see whether there s another family in her area where she could join up with and obviously if she could share that childcare and find another family who s looking for a day s childcare, she may be able to have two sets of children being looked after by the one nanny. ALEXANDER: And the nanny might want a bit more money for that, but shared between the two families? HARVEY: So it wouldn t necessarily be as much as Yeah it wouldn t be 140 It could perhaps bring it down to 80. So that would be an alternative. I mean in London at the moment a daily nanny, you ll be looking at she d want to take home around about 495 a week and that would cost the family actually 37,000 a year. So nannying is expensive. ALEXANDER: Okay. HARVEY: But it is very flexible. ALEXANDER: Yes. Helen, thank you. Carl is on the phone from Sutton Coalfield. Carl, what s your question? CARL: My wife and I are both at work. We have a little boy we ve adopted and we were just wondering if we re entitled to anything with regard to his childcare. ALEXANDER: Can I just ask a little bit more about your situation 7

8 CARL: Yeah. ALEXANDER: what you earn and how much childcare you re looking for? CARL: Well I m earning around about 22,000, 23,000 a year. My wife s on the minimum wage. Childcare - he goes to nursery for two days a week where we get 15.5 hours a week for that, but then we have to top up 42 a week for that. And then he s with a childminder for another two days where we re paying 70 a week. ALEXANDER: Okay, Parveen Akhtar from Money Advice Service, what sort of options has Carl got here? AKHTAR: Well first of all, Carl, I d like to ask are you both working full time? How many hours are you both working? CARL: Yeah we re both working full time, but my wife has a day off in the week because she s a hairdresser. AKHTAR: Okay. Well in the first instance what I would definitely look at asking you to do is if you go onto the parents guide to money on the Money Advice Service website again and go onto Moneyadviceservice.org.uk/parents, you will see what kind of help There s a whole host of information around benefit entitlements to help with childcare, details on childcare options and the rough costs that you might be entitled to. They will also take you to links for possibly looking at childcare element of childcare tax credit for working tax credit parents sorry for working tax credit for parents that work. You mentioned you re both working and your partner/your wife you mention is a hairdresser. Yourself, you work for an employer? CARL: Yeah, I work for an employer. AKHTAR: Have you spoken to your employer to see if they offer a workplace voucher salary scheme? 8

9 CARL: I haven t, no. AKHTAR: It might be something work looking at contacting your line manager or speaking to a HR manager to see if they have one in place. ALEXANDER: But it does tend to be the larger employers, doesn t it, who offer these schemes? AKHTAR: They can do, but sometimes it may just be a lot of employers may not be aware that this is available or they may need some information around how they work. And that information is actually available from Daycaretrust.org.uk and I ll hand over to my colleague here. ALEXANDER: Anand Shukla from Daycare Trust is here. How handy. What do you have to add? SHUKLA: Thanks. Again just to add to that. Often when we talk to employers, the bigger employers have got their processes in place and have got childcare vouchers as part of the benefits that they offer, but I find that when I talk to other employers their conception or their preconception is that there is a cost to them offering childcare vouchers and it s another burden on business; whereas actually the opposite is the case and it s very important to make that clear if people are going to have conversations with their employers. How it works is that when the employee sacrifices their salary, not only does the employee get the benefit of a tax saving on national insurance but the employer does as well. Now if you get a voucher company to administer the scheme for you, then that saving may be used in terms of paying the voucher company, but you shouldn t as an employer be losing out on this and what you are actually doing is really helping your employees to pay for these very high childcare costs. And it s not administratively burdensome. Lots of organisations, very small organisations offer them. My organisation has 25 employees. We offer childcare vouchers. It s a very straightforward scheme to administer and I would encourage all employers to offer it. 9

10 ALEXANDER: Okay. Carl, I hope that s given you some ideas. Parveen wants to come back though. AKHTAR: What I d also ask Carl to look at is I mean have you looked at maybe some of the more informal arrangements that you can also look at - asking for family, grandparents, aunts, uncles, to see if there s any help and support there that might be available? Also CARL: I did actually ask my cousin s daughter to look after him on occasions for us, which she did, but then she got contacted by Ofsted and said that because she was looking after him and she wasn t immediate family that she would have to be Ofsteded. So that threw that out the window. AKHTAR: Yeah, that was the other point I was going to make. If you ve got a family member or somebody who s a relative and there s a blood relationship there going on, they would need to be registered and regulated by Ofsted on the voluntary general register for childcare. ALEXANDER: If you re to use childcare vouchers? AKHTAR: If you re to use childcare vouchers. Or even if you re looking to claim child tax credit if you re paying for the relative to be able to look after them. ALEXANDER: But we wasn t paying her for looking after him either. AKHTAR: You weren t? CARL: No, she was doing it because as she was growing up, I used to babysit for her mum and she saw it as a way of paying us back for looking after her as she was growing up. ALEXANDER: Some puzzled faces in the studio there, Carl. But hopefully we ve 10

11 given you enough to have a think about to know where to go to next. Thank you very much for your call. Kim s on the phone now from Aberdeen. KIM: Hi there. Yes, I m self-employed and I m just wondering if there s help out there to help me with childcare costs. I ve got a 2 year old who s in nursery two times a week. ALEXANDER: The issue of people who are self-employed is interesting. Can they claim the same kind of help from the Government as employees? Anand Shukla, can I come to you on this? SHUKLA: Well no, in terms of childcare vouchers one of the problems with the current childcare voucher scheme is that self-employed people aren t able to claim them. I mean that is a major anomaly and it s one that the Government is looking to correct. ALEXANDER: Is that going to change with the new scheme then? SHUKLA: Yes it is, that s going to change with the new scheme. But no, not through the current childcare voucher scheme. ALEXANDER: And that new scheme isn t going to be phased in until the Autumn of 2015, I understand? SHUKLA: That s right. ALEXANDER: Kim, how old are your children? KIM: It s just one. One son. He s two. ALEXANDER: He s two. So what would you advise Kim to do - basically to register for that new scheme when it comes in? Is that her only option at this stage? 11

12 SHUKLA: Yeah, although I guess there are a whole lot of uncertainties around that as well. First of all when the scheme comes in and how old her child will be because that new scheme will only be for 0 to 5s, and then knowing what the particular policy of the Scottish Government will be at that point and there ll obviously have been a referendum on independence by then. So there s a lot of stages to go before we get till the Autumn of 2015 on that. ALEXANDER: But when your child turns 3, you do get some help, don t you? You get, is it, 15 hours of early years education? Can you just tell us about that? SHUKLA: Yeah sure. So other help that all families can get is through what s called the free entitlement. So at the moment the scheme is that all 3 and 4 year olds can get 15 hours of free childcare per week for 38 weeks per year. That is gradually being extended to 2 year olds, so by September % of the lowest income 2 year olds will also have that benefit as well. In Scotland the system is slightly different, although there is a free entitlement there as well. ALEXANDER: Is it 14.5 hours but they re hoping to extend that? Is that right? SHUKLA: I think it s 12.5 hours, although it varies per local authority. But what the Government, the Scottish Government has committed to is to increasing that to just over 15 hours a week by September Again though there after the referendum has taken place. ALEXANDER: Okay. Kim, thank you very much for your call. Rose is on the line from Kingston upon Thames. Rose, what s your question? ROSE: Oh hello. I have a question about the national insurance employment allowance that was announced by the Chancellor in the Budget. Basically I m looking to employ a nanny, and not having to pay employers national insurance contributions would make that a lot more affordable for us. 12

13 ALEXANDER: This is one for Helen Harvey from Nannytax. HARVEY: Yes, unfortunately I don t think it s going to be good news for you. Again, a bit like the new childcare vouchers, they ve made an announcement but they haven t put any of the sort of nitty-gritty behind it to actually explain how it s going to work in practice. But the one thing is that they are calling it a business relief, and as you re not actually operating a business we don t think that domestic employees are going to be able to be covered by it, so I don t this new saving is going to apply. But obviously there will be the new childcare vouchers system and that should give you added benefits. ALEXANDER: Could you make yourself a business? ROSE: (simultaneously) I see. I ve got a childcare voucher through my employer already. I ve been in the scheme since Is there any advantage to me switching to be in the new scheme that s announced for 2015? HARVEY: Possibly because I think you ve got two children, haven t you ROSE: Yes. HARVEY: so at the moment are both you and Is there a partner or a husband or another working ROSE: Yes he s just moved companies, so he s recently rejoined the scheme. But basically I think my contribution, my tax relief, the money I get via that scheme is higher than his, so I think there s been some tax changes in the meantime. HARVEY: Well that s another thing. The old system, the existing system is reduced and limited for those earning 40% or 50%, although it s now been reduced to the 45% tax bracket. 13

14 ROSE: Oh okay. HARVEY: But on the new system those limits have actually been taken away, so it s only for those who are earning over 150,000 that the restrictions will apply. So assuming neither of you are earning more than 150,000 you ll be okay. ROSE: (laughs) That would be nice. HARVEY: And on this you can claim per child. So again if something happens in your employment, so that both of you aren t eligible to apply, that doesn t matter because it s the children that s the deciding factor as to the amount you can claim. ROSE: So I can get two payments because I have two children as opposed to now where I get a set payment? HARVEY: Yes. So yes you ll be entitled to get more than somebody who only had one child. ROSE: Okay that s great. Thank you very much. ALEXANDER: Okay. Thanks, Rose, I m pleased we could help. Also on the line is Mohammed who s calling from Birmingham. Mohammed, what s your question? MOHAMMED: Hi. I m in full time employment and my partner is in part time employment and she s also studying with the Open University. We re paying about 700 per month for nursery fees which the Government contributes 170 towards. I m just wondering is there any other help available out there for us? ALEXANDER: How old s your daughter, Mohammed? MOHAMMED: She s 17 months. 14

15 ALEXANDER: So the contribution there, is that coming from childcare vouchers and salary sacrifice? MOHAMMED: Yeah it is. My partner gets them because she s still studying. They re for her basically. ALEXANDER: Okay, Parveen Akhtar from the Money Advice Service? AKHTAR: Well with Mohammed with his wife studying. You mentioned she s studying part time. MOHAMMED: Yeah. AKHTAR: Have you looked again with the student finances within the student services with the organisation that she s actually studying with whether there is any support or help available there? MOHAMMED: To be honest, no we didn t think there would be. AKHTAR: It s always worth looking into. Definitely the first port of call, I would suggest. The other would be also again looking on benefit entitlements because benefit, it s a minefield and there s so much out there and you re not automatically entitled to it unless you make that claim. MOHAMMED: Right. AKHTAR: So to be able to check what kind of benefits you re entitled to start by going on the - again I m going to reiterate one more time - is the Moneyadviceservice.org.uk/babybenefits or you can go on the Moneyadviceservice.org.uk/parents where there s a whole heap of information, impartial, and includes what benefits you re entitled to. Also wanted to just double check. If you are not already claiming, it might be worth looking at putting in a claim 15

16 for working tax credit with the childcare tax credit. MOHAMMED: Right. AKHTAR: The entitlement eligibility, there s a whole host of circumstances and criterias individuals need to meet, so it s individually based. So it s always worth applying for. Obviously what you ll get or whether you ll be eligible for it or not will be depending on your circumstances. In this instance I d refer you to the tax credit helpline. The number is ALEXANDER: Very impressed you can do that off the top of your head. AKHTAR: (laughter) You don t want to know how many times I ve done that. Or you can also go onto www - three w s - hmrc.org.uk. ALEXANDER: And we will have a transcript available a couple of days after the programme, so you can go back and find those numbers and that information there. Mohammed, thanks for your call. Peter s on the phone from London. Peter, what s your question? PETER: Oh yes, hello. We have some young children and I ve been putting some money into one of the salary sacrifice services, and we ve tried to go down the nanny route because both my wife and I work and the flexibility of that s pretty important to us. And what we ve been trying to do is get our nanny registered with Ofsted to allow us to pay her with some of the money that we ve been putting aside for salary sacrifice. Now the Ofsted document when we tried to fill it in with our nanny, we want our children to be looked after in our own home so she doesn t really need to be a childminder or under any registration. She s done the various first aid courses and the other things that you need to get registered with Ofsted, but we can t submit the form or get any help back from Ofsted without her undergoing some kind of training to be a full time childminder. I wonder if you could help us get past that in order for us to Is it possible to get past that in order to get our nanny registered to look after our children at home? 16

17 ALEXANDER: Peter, listening to you there is Helen Harvey from Nannytax with a big smile on her face. I think you understand this kind of frustration. Just briefly can you give Peter some advice? HARVEY: Yeah, we ve only got a few seconds left. Yeah I m sure there s something that we can help you with, those sort of things, so if you go to the nanny tax.co.uk website, you can find some information there. It will also have all the numbers for the office, so if you give the people in the office there a call, they will explain all the qualifications and the registration process for you and we can talk it through for you. ALEXANDER: Sounds like you re very used to parents coming on the phone, finding they are a business suddenly, employers with responsibilities. HARVEY: Yes. ALEXANDER: Well that s all we have time for. My thanks to Parveen Akhtar from the Money Advice Service; Anand Shukla from the Daycare Trust; and Helen Harvey from Nannytax. Thanks to you all for your calls and s. You can find out more about managing the costs of childcare on our website: bbc.co.uk/moneybox. You can also listen to the programme again and read a transcript. Paul Lewis will be reviewing the week s personal finance news here at noon on Saturday with Money Box and he ll be taking more of your calls next Wednesday. The subject will be benefits. 17

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