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1 Page 1 of 5 Video Asbestos FAQ Compensation (What can I claim?) > Contact a Lawyer About this website and Alan Care >Comment and Discussion Find a lawyer in your area Other Resources and Websites Home Comment and discussion The asbestos expert interview An interview with Bob Clark, [retired] Consulting Engineer, specialising in asbestos claims [March 2009]. How many reports have you written and over how many years? I was a HSE/Factory Inspector from Thereafter in private practice, I have written on average about 120 reports a year until Of the 120, about 10 a year could not go forward. Of course, by time I am instructed, solicitors have already sifted out the more obviously difficult claims that cannot go forward including those where the employer has closed down and an insurer cannot be found. Did HM Government do enough? Merewether got it right in 1930 as to heavy dust exposure, for example, in asbestos factories where crude asbestos was processed and converted into asbestos goods. Thereafter, I take 1965 as the definitive "trigger" date when industry and other interested parties ought to have known about smaller amounts of dust causing mesothelioma. As a judge reportedly said, although this may be apocryphal, The Sunday Times article, "Scientists track down killer dust", was read at directors breakfast tables. It is clear that, during the 1940s and 1950s, full disclosure of the hazardous nature of asbestos was deliberately withheld from Government by the asbestos industry and that the asbestos industry was lobbying hard in their own financial interests. The net result was that attempts to introduce new legislative controls were held back. For example, the introduction of the revised Shipbuilding Regulations was held back from early 1950s until March Photo from internet Do you believe in the "one fibre" theory? It seems to me that some individuals are more susceptible than others and develop mesothelioma after sustaining seemingly very low exposures to asbestos fibres. I can recall preparing a report in connection with a claim that concerned the domestic exposure of two boys who both contracted mesothelioma as a result of inhaling asbestos fibres that originated from their father's contaminated woolly jumper that he wore at work. Conversely, I find it astonishing that a few laggers, who must have sustained massive asbestos exposures over years, do not contract mesothelioma. There is no doubt that the risk of developing mesothelioma increases as the inhaled dose increases but why some individuals appear to be at a greater risk is a matter for the medical experts to consider. Measurement of dust in the workplace has been very difficult and techniques developed slowly over the years. Until the membrane filter method was universally adopted in the 1960s, the UK and the USA used different techniques and adopted hygiene standards that could not be readily compared. Do you blame HM Governments for not doing enough to save lives? The blame lies squarely with the asbestos industry who failed to provide proper and full information to the Government. We all learnt a great deal from the T&N documents which emerged into the public domain following the Chase-Manhattan litigation in the USA. But even now, as I understand it, because of the vast amount of documents in the T & N archives, there has still not been a full examination of all the documents. Before this disclosure, documents, which had been signed by senior executives, were routinely served stating there were no relevant documents to be disclosed. But, when their archive was searched by the US lawyers, this proved to be manifestly untrue. I recall a legal executive having to try to explain this situation to the Court and saying in effect "what can I say" and having to admit that there were no excuses for failing to provide this information to the Claimants lawyers and the Court. It should be remembered that the Government found itself in a paradoxical position with HMFI and HSE advocating the introduction of strict control measures concerning the use of asbestos-based materials and a ban on the use of crocidolite-based materials with a view to reducing risk to health while other Government departments were still insisting that asbestos should be used for fire prevention purposes in new buildings. Whilst with hindsight, it appears that the Government moved too slowly, whether or not there is ultimate culpability still needs to be fully investigated. What is your view of the Sicily prosecutions and directors of Eternit being jailed? Ultimately, even those in the asbestos industry will get their comeuppance. It is reported that, in the past, senior executives in the asbestos industry have developed and died from mesothelioma as a result of their occupational exposures to asbestos fibres. The expert counsel interview Roger Hiorns, 9 Gough Square chambers, London ( ) Roger Hiorns From your experience when representing asbestos claimants what would you consider to be the thorny issues today? The thorny issues of the day appear to be: firstly, what dose of exposure to asbestos is required to make a "material increase in the risk" of developing mesothelioma?; secondly, what does a claimant have to prove to satisfy a court that his lung cancer was caused by asbestos exposure?; and, thirdly, which insurer should pay an asbestos claim. Everyone seems to agree that the decision by the Court of Appeal in the "trigger issue" litigation left the law in a very unsatisfactory state. What are your views on low dose claims before 1965? Low dose claims before 1965 are fraught with difficulty unless there was a statutory duty which applied. Common law duties before 1965 will not assist a claimant in a low dose claim because employers would not be taken to have foreseen injury from low dose exposure. Unfortunately, most low dose claims before 1965 will not succeed. Do you consider that the Mesothelioma Fast Track proceedure has been a success and do you believe it could be improved. Everyone involved in asbestos litigation agrees that the mesothelioma fast track scheme has been an unparalled success. The vast majority of mesothelioma victims now obtain compensation in their lifetime and this gives justice a good name. The only criticism there might be of the present system is that Masters could and should impose even tighter timescales on defendants in respect of disclosure of documents and service of witness statements. See also "Personal Injury Claims" section of this website for case reports/histories A brief chronology of the Porton Down litigation -"volunteers" and chemical warfare agent experiments 1940s s

2 Page 2 of 5 "If we tell them that the experiments should be lethal there would inevitably be a sharp fall off in numbers, and probably a degree of embarrassing publicity. On the other hand, if no more warning of the danger is given than at present, we may be quite rightly accused of deliberate misinterpretation in the future". Memorandum civil servant [1959] [March] G. Carter researcher and official historian for Porton Down's "Loose Minute" 30th March 1994 refers to a Treasury Solicitor letter dated May 1953 relating to Ronald Maddison's death. Disclosed for inquest in Network First documentary Porton Down [November]. First letter of claim for Michael Roche to Director of Porton Down also requesting disclosure [April] Press conference and Press Release by Derek Fatchett MP (Labour Shadow Minister Defence) - calling for inquiry along lines of Clinton radiation experiments and long-term health study of veterans. See Press Release Human experiments at Porton Down [August] Section 10 certificate issued by Minister of State DSS (re Michael Roche) claim barred state MoD by reason of Section 10 Crown Proceedings Act House of Commons parliamentary debate "Michael Paynter "a Porton Down "observer" First meeting solicitors with MoD to attempt settlement for veteran claims. Claims denied inter alia Section 10 applies [12 2] Letter MoD Dr J Reid Minister of State for the Armed Forces to M Roche. Refuses long-term health review for veterans upon "grounds of cost and impractical" House of Commons debate Hansard - "Gordon Bell" - Chris Mullen MP [24 8) Llias Craik sister of Ronald Maddison instructs solicitors. Letter of claim and request for disclosure to DERA Porton Down Letters from MoD/DERA Porton Down in response to letter of claim for Llias Craik sister of Ronald Maddison - Prior to May 1987 service personnel or their dependents in cases of death were prevented from pursuing claims for compensation from the MoD by Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947 ". Ken Earl first chairman of PDVSG (actor in "Flying Squad" in his earlier years) Operation Antler Wiltshire Police investigation commences 1999 [15 10] Letter MoD -...[t]urning to the question of compensation I am afraid that there is nothing that I can add to the advice previously provided to you by DERA in their letter 21 September. The position is that as Mr Maddison s service in HM Forces was prior to the repeal of Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947 the MoD is prevented from offering your client any compensation Alan Care "Poisoned by their own people. The Independent Gassed - Rob Evans [Guardian] published BBC documentary A Death at Porton Down. [Family of Ronald Maddison located earlier by BBC] Porton Down Veterans Support Group [PDVSG] established [October] Dr Moonie MoD Minister announces MAP and MRC studies into long-term health of Porton Down volunteers [April] Porton Down Human Guinea Pigs Gassed without consent" Alan Care (APIL Focus and "NESA news") 2000 Further meeting with MoD to attempt to settle claims [November] Department of Health announcement of Medical Assessment Programme at St Thomas s Hospital, London 2001 MoD announces Prof Sir Ian Kennedy to write ethics study for MoD Historical Survey of Porton Down experiments. Ronald Maddison in [28 7] HM Coroner David Masters makes application to High Court and Attorney General for fiat for a new inquest into death of Ronald Maddison [November] Lord Chief Justice Woolf orders new inquest [7.7] CPS decision notified to veterans not to prosecute 66 development cases as having been submitted by Operation Antler ( March) "Clinical findings in 111 ex-porton Down volunteers" Lee et al. Porton Down Volunteers' Medical Assessment Programme (PDVMAP). "Conclusion: On a clinical basis, no evidence was found to support the hypothesis that participation in Porton Down trials produced any long-term adverse health effects or unusual patterns of disease compared to those of the general population of the same age" [5th May] Ronald Maddison inquest commences in Trowbridge, Wiltshire before a jury During the inquest a 1953 letter from the Treasury Solicitor to Ministry of Supply [forerunner of MoD] is disclosed stating: The sentence Tests are carefully planned to avoid the slightest chance of danger has proved misleading. Indeed it is difficult to see how it was ever possible to say truthfully that tests with lethal gases did not contain the slightest chance of danger.. A second letter 15/8/1953 states that Section 10 does not apply to the Maddison experiment...when the case was referred to me previously I did consider the relevance of Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947 but I came to the conclusion that it had no application. On the information before me I am still of that opinion Maddison inquest told about secret and officially denied MI6 LSD experiments at Porton Down in 1950s [1.9] Professor Sir Ian Kennedy gives evidence at inquest. [Extracts from the Court transcript]: Kennedy "We are not in the realm of holy writ, as you are trying to point out here. I doubt there is much in the literature on that, but I would say, yes, there may have been some then who would argue the point. I think the argument was bad then and I think the argument remains bad now. That is not to say there is no room for legitimate disagreement...the uncertainties were so great, that before proceeding to further research they should have been appropriately tested, analysed, with a view to controlling them, otherwise

3 Page 3 of 5 one is in the territory of an uncontrollable danger, and ethically, one should not be in that territory in terms of exposing volunteers to it. It is wrong to do so " 2004 Veterans Agency ( War Pension ) appeal allowed for Michael Paynter and award for General Malaise (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and eczema. Michael Paynter had attended London Smog experiments at Porton Down. Archive document: November "14th meeting of the ACSRTD (Biology Committee) minutes (b) Smog research. THE CHAIRMAN considered it refreshing that the committee could turn to a purely civilian problem asked Professor Christie then to sum up the position as Chairman of the Medical Research Council s Committee on smog. MR PATTLE said that the work being undertaken at Porton at the request of the Medical Research Council [15 November] inquest jury return verdict that Ronald Maddison was "unlawfully killed" (54 days of evidence). bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&ms3=22&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2 Photo. Reconstruction [20 12] MoD Minister Ivor Caplin statement to House of Commons and MoD agree to pay Maddison family compensation and apologise but will also judicially review the jury inquest verdict "After the inquest. Porton Down revisited" Alan Care.APIL Focus 2005 [January]. "Exposed" article from The Lawyer by Jon Robbins [January] Hansard House of Commons ("Douglas Shave") debate [27.1] MoD waive Section 10 defence as letter from Treasury Solicitor from 1953 had "surfaced" [22.2] Second Adjournment debate House of Commons "Porton Down". MPs cross party call for Public Inquiry. See Hansard. Anne Widdecome MP Maidstone (for Ken Earl) - This is an appalling story of an arrogant state and innocent young men. A story of a State that believed it was acceptable to experiment on its own citizens without giving the proper information a story of innocence and trust There are times when government should say wrong was done even if the matter was in the past..." [18.3] Further meeting with solicitors for family and veterans and MoD to try and settle claims [19 4] MoD given permission to bring judicial review of inquest verdict by Mr Justice Andrew Collins. High Court. R (on the application of MoD) v Wiltshire and Swindon Coroner (Craik and others, interested parties) All England Law Reports 2005 Vol 4. pages [2005 EWHC 889 (Admin)] [October] BBC documentary "Cold War Dirty Science" [13 2] MoD v HMC Judicial Review hearing. MoD accept that Ronald Maddison was unlawfully killed by reason of gross negligence in the conduct and planning of this particular experiment. The MoD withdraw their Judicial Review challenge and the jury Inquisition is amended [February] First three of five MoD/MI6/SIS "mind control" Porton Down LSD claims settled [May] MoD settle Ronald Maddison claim for 100, VIDEO: BBC - bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws= [June] MoD publish "Historical Survey of the Porton Down volunteer programme" which includes Prof. Sir Ian Kennedy's chapter on ethics [December] Formal mediation MoD and veterans resulting in the settlement of claims for 3 million and an apology to be given in the House of Commons. Hansard: Porton Down Veterans The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Derek Twigg): The Ministry of Defence has for some months been in discussions with solicitors representing a group of Porton Down veterans regarding compensation claims arising out of their participation in the programme of trials undertaken at the Chemical Defence Establishment during the cold war. I am pleased to report that an amicable settlement has now been reached with respect to these claims. This settlement is without admission of liability by the Ministry of Defence and involves the payment of a global sum of 3 million in full and final settlement of all claims made by the group. The Government have in the past made clear the debt owed by the nation to those who took part in the trials at Porton Down designed to ensure that the United Kingdom had the defensive and deterrent capabilities to counter the real and horrific threat that chemical weapons would be used against our armed forces or civilian population, as they had against others; the security of the country rested on these trials and the contribution of those who took part in them. The trials were in many cases conducted under considerable pressures of time as new threats emerged. The Government accept that there were aspects of the trials where there may have been shortcomings and where, in particular, the life or health of participants may have been put at risk. The Government sincerely apologise to those who may have been affected. Guardian report: "The Porton Down settlement and the legacy of Ronald Maddison: Cold War human experiments " Alan Care. APIL Focus "Medical Ethics and Human Experiments at Porton Down: Inforned consent in Britain's Biological and Chemical Warfare Experiments". [Professor] Ulf Schmidt, School of History, University of Kent. Chapter in "History and Theory of Human Experimentation - The Declaration of Helsinki and Modern Medical Ethics" Porton Down veterans memorial. BBC repport "Victims of experiments at the Porton Down research centre have been honoured during a service at Staffordshire's National Memorial Arboretum..." (November] [February] London, Wellcome Collection exhibition "War + Medicine" includes display of the 1953 Treasury Solicitor's letter /09 MoD Annual Report including Porton Down litigation. Also MoD reports 2007/8 and 2009/ (March) Oxford University publish "Long-term effects of the Human Volunteer Programme at Porton Down" and their results of studies ongoing since October ".. A detailed paper on exposures at Porton Down was also published recently in Annals of Occupational Hygiene...Co-investigator Dr Lucy Carpenter... We have found a small increase in overall death rates in the Porton Down veterans when compared with other veterans but no increase in overall cancer rates. Many of the Porton Down veterans have concerns about the effect that taking part in experimental tests will have had on their health. We hope the results of this independent study may help to answer some of their questions...". For full press release see - Post 2009 Professor Ulf Schmidt, University of Kent, History Department continues with the "Porton Down project" Retrospective. How a letter helped change the mesothelioma QBD court system in 2002

4 Page 4 of 5 February letter [abridged] Alan Care to QBD Senior Master R L Turner - "Dear Master Turner, I am writing to you today having mentioned a problem to Master Eyre today My policy is to try and recover some damages be it by interim payment or expedited trial before the claimant inevitably succumbs to the fatal disease. My reasoning is a wish that the Claimant have the benefit of interim damages before he dies for example for the holiday of a lifetime or visit to family abroad. Needless to say there are many ways in which the living claimant will take comfort in receiving damages before his death However unfortunately the reality is that Court dates for interim damages applications, CMCs and even expedited trials are often too late for the claimant and only in effect benefit his widow I would respectfully suggest that consideration be given to appointing one or two Masters to deal with the living mesothelioma claimant claims so as to have and continually develop special expertise. As soon as proceedings are issued this should trigger in the Court Office special procedures and urgency. This should also help with considerable saving of Court time and for ourselves; Defendant solicitors and Counsel. It would not be necessary to cover established and accepted ground and indeed "silly" points taken by a Defendant (or Claimant) would receive short thrift. I would be extremely grateful for your response. Alan Care". 20th March letter of reply - Senior Master Turner "Would you like to talk to me about your letter...i am now in a position to offer an Assigned Master to hear these matters if I consider it appropriate. Yours sincerely R Turner Following meetings with Master Turner (together with Rodney Nelson Jones who I subsequently invited to assist) I well recall in the QBD library and representations from Defendant firm's Berrymans and Davies Arnold & Cooper the first "Asbestosis induced Mesothelioma Claims" Practice Note was issued "Dear Mr. Care, Mesothelioma Cases. I attach the Practice Note I intend to have issued in respect of these claims. Please pass this information to other solicitors practising in the field as you feel necessary. Yours sincerely R Turner. I then sent the Practice note to APIL for circulation to APIL members. Thus the QBD "Mesothelioma Fast Track" began. The VX men. "The Communists of Cornwall seem well briefed " Alan Care. One of earliest veterans accounts I heard way back in the early 1990s stays firmly in the memory. A veteran told his story of going to Porton Down for what he was told was "common cold" tests. He sat in a gas chamber whilst a machine whirled releasing a gas. In both arms he held a rabbit. "I used to keep rabbits and these were lovely the first rabbit just sort of rested his head and nodded off. I thought that's odd he's gone to sleep". He noted that the second rabbit did the same. An official voice came over the gas chamber speaker "Get out of the chamber now or you are dead". He ran for the sealed doors. Upon looking back he saw a member of Porton Staff wearing a respirator carrying out the rabbits by their back legs clearly dead. "This is not the. common cold" he thought. Gerald had been exposed to the notorious chemical warfare nerve agent Sarin GB used to fatal and devastating effect in the Tokyo subway by the Arum Cult terrorists. But if human Sarin GB testing is not astonishing enough we now know that Porton Down conducted human testing with the even deadlier nerve agent VX. I well recall with some astonishment taking witness Statementsin relation to two VX incidents - one a volunteer and another a Porton Down scientist. These must be unique accounts in the history of chemical warfare. VX is undoubtedly a notoriously hazardous nerve agent toxin with little parallel. That humans should be subjected to it is maybe unbelievable. But it happened. In the 1960s Porton Down explored their request for human tests not only with Sarin GB but also with VX with the Ministry. Questions of intravenous experimentation was raised ie injecting volunteers with VX. It was a time of great activity and flux as memoranda went from Porton Down to be considered along the corridors of Whitehall. Not only were servicemen to be used but also to be added to the pool of "volunteers" were civilians (including civil servants). The Home Office rejected the request. HM prisoners were excluded as "great gossips". At this time in the 1960s Mr J, who now lives in Blackpool, recalls visiting Porton Down twice. He was exposed to CRA, Pyrex, Rubber mix, and VX. He still has a scar from where the VX was placed on his arm after being left in a chair in a gas chamber for some hours. Presumably due to a very low dose of VX he somehow surprisingly survived. He later suffered a spontaneous inter-cranial haemorrhage. He had gone to Porton down believing it was for research as to defence and chemical and biological attack. He received extra pay. Nothing was explained about VX whilst at Porton Down. Oddly when the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) reviewed his "development" case as submitted by Wiltshire Police "Operation Antler" no mention was ever made of his VX experiment. Save for the scarring Mr J has not apparently suffered any adverse long term health consequences. At about the same time R a scientist at Porton Down who described his work as simply getting on with research had an accident when VX got onto his skin. He says that there was no great concern about the Cold War in fact he and his colleagues joked about this and that this humour took place at the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This accident with VX understandably caused much flap and ado at Porton Down. R now suffers from a severe disabling neurological condition. Curiously there is mention when discussing if Official Secrets Act forms should be used that - "The forms are useful to the DPP in the event of a prosecution (seeing that the Communists of Cornwall seem well briefed ". A memo DCS(A) states - " THE CDAB is convinced that tests by the intravenous route are essential for a proper understanding of the effects of the nerve agents GB and VX on man." From Wikipedia - List of asbestos disease medical articles Thousands of scientific and medical articles have chronicled man's understanding of the hazards of asbestos to human life. [1] [2] This understanding paralleled the growth of the industrial revolution, particularly in the textile factories and mines of Great Britain. This body of knowledge is frequently referred to in litigation as the state of the art or the benchmark for determining if a company acted within the bounds of negligent behavior. The following is a chronological list of some of the major pre-1950 scientific and medical articles relating to the knowledge of the medical and scientific communities regarding asbestos and disease in humans: Year Publication 1898 Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories and Workshops, Part II. H.M. Stationery Office pp "Effect of Asbestos Dust on Workers Health in Asbestos Mines and Factories". The Labour Gazette: Hoffman, F.L. (1918). Mortality from Respiratory Diseases in Dusty Trades (Inorganic Dusts). U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics. pp , Cooke, W.E. (July 26). "Fibrosis of the Lungs due to the Inhalation of Asbestos Dust". British Medical Journal: Editorial (1928). "Pulmonary Asbestosis". JAMA. 2 98: Simpson, F.W. (1929). "Pulmonary Asbestosis in South Africa". British Medical Journal: Haddow, A.C. (August 3). "Asbestosis". The Lancet: Wood, W.B. (May 10). Tubercle: Correspondence, Foreign Letters (June 28). "Compensation Act to be Extended to Asbestosis". JAMA: Mills, R.G. (June 28). "Report of a Case". Minnesota Medicine: Editorial (1930). "Current Comment, Pulmonary Asbestosis". JAMA 95 (19): Merewether, E.R.A. (May 1930). "The Occurence of Pulmonary Fibrosis and Other Pulmonary Afflictions in Asbestos Workers". J.Indus.Hyg : "Health and Industrial Hygiene - Pulmonary Asbestosis". Monthly Labor Review 31: Encylopedia of Hygiene, Pathology and Social Welfare: Occupation and Health, Vol. I, A-H. Geneva: International Labor Office pp Gardner, L.U. (1931). "Studies on Experimental Pneumonoconiosis: VI. Inhalation of Asbestos Dust, Its Effect Upon Primary Tuberculosis Infection". J.Indus.Hyg.. 2 Vol. 13: Gordon, B (June 1931). "Pulmonary Asbestosis". Penn.Med.J. 35: Gloyne, S.R. (1934). Lancet Dreesen (August 1938). "A Study of Asbestos in the Asbestos Textile Industry". U.S. Treasury Dept., Public Health Bulletin: Dublin (1941). "Occupational Hazards and Diagnostic Signs, Bulletin". U.S. Dept. of Labor, Div. of Labor Standards 41: II, IV, V and Holleb, H.B. (1942). "Bronchiogenic Carcinoma in Association with Pulmonary Asbestosis". American Journal of Pathology: Wedler, H.W. (1944). "Asbestosis and Pulmonmary Carcinoma". Bulletin of Hygiene 19: Editorial (November 25). "Environmental Cancer". JAMA: Hutchinson (1944). "Dust as an Industrial Health Hazard". Heating and Ventilating 41 (6): Fleischer, W.F. (1946). "Health Survey of Pipe Covering Operations in Constructing Naval Vessels". Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology 1: Lynch, K.M. (1948). Asbestosis IV: Analysis of Forty Necropsied Cases, Diseases of the Chest. pp Merewether (1949). Annual Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories for London: H.M. Stationary Ofc.. pp Wyers (1949). Asbestosis. Postgraduate Medical Journal. pp

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