LAURA A. CARUCCI, C.S.R., R.P.R., L.L.C.

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1 0 0 JACKSON TOWNSHIP PLANNING BOARD MONDAY, MARCH, 0 COMMENCING AT :0 P.M.... IN THE MATTER OF: : TRANSCRIPT : OF BLOCK: 00; 0 : REMOTE ZOOM LOTS:.0;.0 : PROCEEDING (SOUTH SECTION) : JACKSON PARKE : RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT FOR : SINGLE AND MULTIFAMILY UNITS :... B E F O R E: JACKSON TOWNSHIP PLANNING BOARD THERE BEING PRESENT: ROBERT HUDAK, CHAIRMAN LEONARD HARING, JR., VICE CHAIRMAN MARTIN FLEMMING, COUNCILMAN TIMOTHY DOLAN, MEMBER MICHELE CAMPBELL, Ph.D., MEMBER JEFFREY RIKER, MEMBER ANDREW JOZWICKI, MEMBER (REMOTE) TERENCE M. WALL, MEMBER JOSEPH RICCARDI, MEMBER ANTHONY LUISI, ALTERNATE MEMBER I MANUELA BRITO, ALTERNATE MEMBER II (REMOTE) CERTIFIED COURT REPORTERS P.O. BOX 0 SADDLE BROOK, NJ

2 A P P E A R A N C E S: GERTNER & GERTNER, LLC BY: SEAN D. GERTNER, ESQUIRE 0 Bennetts Mills Road Jackson Township, New Jersey 0 -- Counsel to the Board PRIME LAW, LCC BY: JASON R. TUVEL, ESQUIRE University Plaza, Suite 0 Hackensack, New Jersey Counsel to the Applicant 0 GASIOROWSKI & HOLOBINKO BY: RONALD GASIOROWSKI, ESQUIRE Broad Street, #0 Red Bank, New Jersey Counsel to The Cupon Group, Elenor Hannum A L S O P R E S E N T: DENISE BUONO, Planning Board Secretary DANIELLE SINOWITZ, Recording Secretary ERNEST J. PETERS, JR., P.P., Board Planner DOUGLAS W. KLEE, P.E., Board Engineer 0 0--

3 0 0 I N D E X WITNESS SWORN TESTIMONY ELENOR HANNUM DAPHNE GALVIN, P.E. Cross-Examination by Mr. Gasiorowski NICHOLAS VERDERESE, P.E. Cross Examination by Mr. Gasiorowski JOHN CREIGH RAHENKAMP, P.P. 0 Cross Examination by Mr. Gasiorowski ELENOR HANNUM Direct Examination by Mr. Gasiorowski 0 Cross Examination by Mr. Tuvel PUBLIC QUESTIONS/COMMENTS RHYAN GRECH 0 Farragut Avenue Mays Landing CHARLES CARUSO 0 0 Nassau Drive Lawrenceville MELINDA MOICH Forge Pond Road Brick BRITTA FORSBERG-WENZEL Haines Road Toms River RICHARD CIULLO 0 0 Grant Avenue Seaside Heights JEFFREY NEMETH Perrineville Road 0--

4 PUBLIC QUESTIONS/COMMENTS SWORN TESTIMONY JOSEPH RICCHIUTI Corey Lane RANDY BERGMANN Brentwood Drive DENISE GARNER Oval Court Bear, Delaware 0 E X H I B I T S NO. DESCRIPTION ID EVID (No Exhibits Marked.) 0 0--

5 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Legal matters, we have no resolutions for this evening. Anything to add, Mr. Gertner? MR. GERTNER: Mr. Chairman, I just have a brief announcement. I guess we can do it here under the miscellaneous legal matters. This is really for both the board and to some extent the public as well. I just want to make sure that everyone understands. And when I mean everyone I mean everyone, I mean both board members in their role and quite frankly, members of the public as well, that board members sit here in a quasi-judicial position. In other words, you're receiving evidence. This is not a "p" political gathering. So much like in the old days when, if you were sitting and listening to a case either as a judge or as a judge and jury, when you were told or admonished not to read newspaper stories about a particular application, I just remind you, with the advent of social media and such, to make sure that you don't do that. Moreover, I don't -- I want to make sure as well that the public understands, respectfully, that this is not a political, "p", 0--

6 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 gathering as well, and that the board is guided by evidence and not passion. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Thank you. MR. GERTNER: And I don't think any member of the board has been swayed in any way, but I just want to make sure that is clear for the record. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Thank you. Okay. Anybody have anything to discuss? (No Response.) CHAIRMAN HUDAK: No? Okay. We're going to jump right in. Our first application, Block 00,.0, Lots.0,.0, Jackson Parke South Section. This is a continuation. Where we last left off we had an objector, an attorney, who was testifying, who began his testimony. I ask that Mr. Klee and Mr. Peters just very briefly just bring us up to where we are. MR. KLEE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you indicated, this is an application for preliminary and final major subdivision and site plan. It involves dwelling units, single family, apartments, and townhouse units. We have heard from -- extensive 0--

7 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 testimony from the Applicant, and as you indicated, the Applicant has completed his presentation and presently we're under cross-examination by the public. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Thank you. Mr. Peters. MR. PETERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This site is still located in the MFAH mixed residential affordable housing eight zone, which is a permitted use. They have indicated that they have a conditional use for the pump station. And it appears that the application does not at this point require any variances. Thank you. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Thank you. At this point I will allow the Applicant's attorney, Mr. Tuvel, if he would like to make a statement before we go into cross-examination, now's your chance. MR. TUVEL: Sure. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Board, hope everybody is doing well. Jason Tuvel, attorney for the Applicant. I thought Mr. Gertner raised a good point at the beginning when he talked about the board 0--

8 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 acting as a quasi-judicial entity. And I just, for the purposes of this application, if the board could just confirm on the record that they have not done those things, no member of the board has been persuaded, has engaged in any improper communications, that would be great just to get that on the record, I think, Mr. Gertner, for this application, just to confirm it. MR. GERTNER: Mr. Tuvel, I can make that representation on behalf of the board as their representative. MR. TUVEL: Okay. Thank you. So, Mr. Chairman, as you indicated earlier, we're at -- we've had multiple hearings on this application. Where we left off at the last meeting was that Mr. Gasiorowski, who is counsel for CUPON, was cross-examining witnesses. I am not sure if he finished that, I believe he did. And I don't know where he stands, if he's going to call his own witnesses at this point, but I don't believe he rested in terms of his case, whether it be cross-examination or calling his own witnesses. But what I'd like just to reiterate is if he could just disclose who his clients are and who 0--

9 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 are the members of CUPON, because if there are members of CUPON that are participating in this matter, Mr. Gasiorowski should be the one speaking on their behalf. They should not be speaking during the public comment section. So if the board could ask him again who he represents, I think that would be helpful. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Okay. MR. GERTNER: Through the Chair, Mr. Chairman, could you ask -- I went over to Mr. Jacobs. I don't see that Mr. Gasiorowski is on. If he or his representative could raise his hand. IT MODERATOR: I don't see him. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Do we have his client? I know, wasn't -- MR. GERTNER: Ms. Hannum. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Ms. Hannum, wasn't she mentioned? I see her, she's on. MR. GERTNER: So, Mr. Chairman, when this happens in front of a court -- did someone raise their hand? CHAIRMAN HUDAK: I see Elenor Hannum has raised her hand. Could we speak with her, please? 0--

10 0 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 Ms. Hannum, if you could un-mute and turn your camera on, please. MS. HANNUM: Hi, how are you? CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Good, how are you? MS. HANNUM: I'm good. I spoke with you earlier. He's aware that there is a meeting. I did just try calling his phone. I don't know if he is trying to call me back right now. I'm not quite sure if he's trying to get on and he's having difficulty. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Okay. Did you say you tried calling him? MS. HANNUM: I just tried calling him and it rang, so he's aware of the meeting. And he's calling me right now. Hold on. (Cell Phone Ringing.) MS. HANNUM: Hi, Ron, we're on the meeting right now. They were waiting for you to get on. Hold on. FEMALE VOICE: He's trying, we clicked on the link and it says the meeting has not begun yet. So we just, kind of, been sitting here staring at the screen. It says when the meeting starts we'll let people in that are waiting. 0--

11 MS. HANNUM: Okay. FEMALE VOICE: Wait, let me try going back. 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 MR. GERTNER: Yeah, so, through the Chairman, no one else has had any issues, including Ms. Hannum. You may want to -- thank you, Mr. Wall, ask him to refresh the browser and perhaps, Ms. Hannum, if you could him the login information. MS. HANNUM: Yes, I will. Hi, okay. So I will you. They -- you're getting on? Okay. They're -- they should be in. Okay. She raised her hand. Okay. There you go. I can see you now. You're welcome. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Okay. If she could un-mute herself and turn her camera on. There you go. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Oh, did you turn the sound -- am I on? FEMALE VOICE: You're on. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Oh, they can hear me or what? 0--

12 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Good evening, Mr. Gasiorowski. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Make it louder please? FEMALE VOICE: He said good evening Mr. Gasiorowski. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Good evening. That's the loudest you can make it? Can you hear me now? Hello? CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Yes. Can you hear me? MR. GASIOROWSKI: Yes, I can. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Okay. Mr. Gasiorowski, the meeting has started. We gave the applicant's attorney a moment to speak. Our professionals just gave us a quick synopsis of this application. So you're on for your cross-examination or continue your cross-examination. MR. GASIOROWSKI: All right. I believe that -- I've looked at my notes, I believe I was examining Ms. Galvin when we broke off. MR. TUVEL: Yes. No, Mr. Chairman, before we get 0--

13 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 started, just two things. One is we finished Ms. Galvin. In fact, I actually asked the board at the end of the last hearing, there was only a few minutes left and you actually agreed to extend, Mr. Chairman, to allow the conclusion of Ms. Galvin's cross-examination. So we finished Ms. Galvin. And then my other -- the other item that I wanted to bring up because Ron was not on when I indicated this, I would just like Mr. Gasiorowski to indicate who his client is. I know he has indicated that Ms. Hannum is part of his client CUPON. If he could just indicate if there are any other members of CUPON that are on the proceedings this evening. MR. GASIOROWSKI: I only have knowledge of Ms. CUPON [sic]. However, she will testify and you could ask her that question and she will respond to it. MR. TUVEL: No one else from -- you have no other members of CUPON? There are no other members? MR. GASIOROWSKI: No, I said there are other members of CUPON and Ms. Galvin -- not Ms. Galvin, rather, Ms. Hannum will identify them 0--

14 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 when I call her as a witness. MR. TUVEL: That's fine. As long as we could say who they are so that we know if they're on the meeting that they're part of your client. That's what I wanted to make sure we had on the record. That's all. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Where are we with -- are you saying that Ms. Galvin is not present this evening? MR. TUVEL: No, she's present because I agreed to have all my witnesses available at every meeting, but what I was saying, though, is at the end of the last hearing we specifically asked the Chairman, because you had commenced your cross-examination of Ms. Galvin, to allow you to finish that witness so we could move on at the next meeting to either your case or to another witness. So we concluded Ms. Galvin's cross. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Well, in reviewing my notes, there are really very few questions that I wish to ask of her. MR. GERTNER: Through the Chairman, a couple of things. First, Mr. Gasiorowski, if you can speak more slowly and closer to the mic, we're having 0--

15 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 difficulty picking you up. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Okay. Can you hear me now? MR. GERTNER: That is fantastic. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Fantastic. MR. GERTNER: Second thing is, Mr. Tuvel, do you have any objection to reopening Ms. Galvin's cross, just so we could move forward on this? MR. TUVEL: Well, I thought, the purposes of being efficient, as we've always talked about, we extended the last hearing to allow Mr. Gasiorowski to finish his cross-examination of Ms. Galvin, and so that -- we concluded that. MR. GERTNER: Mr. Gasiorowski, how many more questions -- through the Chairman. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Oh, no more than ten minutes at most. MR. GERTNER: I would recommend for the -- to make the full record, that the cross-examination be reopened. Mr. Tuvel would have the right, obviously, to redirect. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Agreed. MR. TUVEL: It's up to the board, but I just wanted to make it clear that we specifically

16 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 MR. GERTNER: That's fine. MR. TUVEL: -- extended to allow the conclusion of that witness. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: All right. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Let me just ask for my own edification up front, I see the names of Ms. Galvin, Mr. Verderese, Mr. Rahenkamp. Were they the only three experts that Mr. Tuvel presented in his case. MR. TUVEL: Experts, yes. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Yeah. So Mr. Rahenkamp, he was your planner, correct. MR. TUVEL: Yes, Ron. You cross-examined him at the last meeting as the planner. Correct. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Okay, fine. All right. All right. Let me ask several questions of Ms. Galvin, if I may. Thank you. MR. GERTNER: So over -- Mr. Tuvel's objection is noted. Ms. Galvin, if you could un-mute yourself, please, as well as allow for -- thank you. Ms. Galvin, you've been previously 0--

17 0:PM 0:PM sworn, correct? MS. GALVIN: Correct. 0:PM D A P H N E G A L V I N, P.E. 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: MR. GERTNER: Your expertise has been accepted by the board. Through the Chairman, Mr. Gasiorowski, your witness. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Good evening, Mr. Chairman. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Ms. Galvin, I just have a couple of quick questions. If you recall at the last hearing, there was some discussion with regard to impervious surface and how the percentile of impervious surface was arrived at. Do you recall that? A. I recall discussions about the impervious surface, yes. Q. Okay. Can you tell me, with regard to the site, what is the permitted percentile of impervious surface? I believe it's 0 percent, but I will stand 0--

18 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 corrected if necessary? A. No, I -- we actually specifically discussed that at the last hearing and the 0 percent impervious coverage was associated with the single-family lots, not with the project as a whole. It was specifically limited to the single-family lots. Q. Okay. Now, are you aware of whether or not there was a specific provision in the Zoning Ordinance in Jackson which differentiates between percentile of impervious surface in single-family lots as compared to what it might be for apartments or townhouses? Is there a difference? A. I don't believe there is a separate impervious coverage standard for the other uses. Q. Are you saying there is no standard whatever? A. Not with respect to a bulk standard. Q. Well, in your calculations did you make a determination taking into -- well, let's talk first about the roadways. You're aware of the fact that, with regard to roadways, there is a requirement for a 0--

19 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM foot right-of-way; is there not? A. Yes. It's a proposal for 0-foot right-of-way. Correct. Q. And with a 0-foot right-of-way, there is a 0-foot traveled way; correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, with regard to the 0-foot traveled way, that is impervious surface; correct? A. Correct. Q. Is that part of the calculations for the -- MR. TUVEL: Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, if I may? These questions were the exact questions asked at the last meeting. MR. GASIOROWSKI: They were not. MR. TUVEL: These are the exact same questions. MR. GASIOROWSKI: They were not. I asked the questions and I'm telling you that they were not. MR. TUVEL: Ron, I am looking at the transcript from the last meeting. You asked this exact question at the last meeting. MR. GASIOROWSKI: I asked her -- I 0--

20 0 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 asked her about impervious surface and her statement was there was a standard for single-family housing. There were not standards for whether it be townhouses or the like. I never asked her and she never answered as to what the percentile of impervious surface was in the remainder of the site. In other words, in the areas where there's townhouses and the areas where there's apartments, in those sections what is the percentile of impervious surface. She never answered that question. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Can you answer that question? A. I believe I answered it already tonight and last time that there's not a bulk standard for impervious coverage for the other uses. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that on the site, taking it in its entirety, that in those sections where there's single-family housing, the percentile of permitted impervious surface coverage is 0 percent, but in the other areas where there's townhouses and apartments, there is no standard, there is no regulation as to what the percentile of 0--

21 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 impervious surface can be? A. Correct. Q. Well, do you know -- having been the engineer, do you know what the percentile of impervious surface is in those areas? A. No. Q. Okay. So not to be flippant, but, in fact, it could possibly be 0 percent, 0 percent, 0 percent; you have no knowledge what it is? A. No. No, that's not what I said. You asked me if I knew the specific impervious coverages for those areas. I do not. But I do know the official impervious coverage for the site. For the entire project. Q. The overall impervious surface, that's taking into -- A. Correct. Q. -- consideration the townhouses, the apartment and the single-family housing? A. Yes. Q. You know that. What is it? A. It's approximately acres, which is about 0 percent, percent. 0--

22 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 Q. Of the entire site? So percent of the entire site is impervious surface? A. That's correct. Q. Just briefly, if you could look at A-, your Exhibit A-? A. Sure. Q. If you could put that up, please. MR. GERTNER: Mr. Gasiorowski, while they're doing that, please speak closer to the mic. When you sit back, it becomes very difficult to hear you. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Okay. THE WITNESS: Hold on a second. MR. GERTNER: Thank you, Ms. Galvin. THE WITNESS: Okay. A- is up. MR. GERTNER: Not yet. THE WITNESS: It says it's paused. SECRETARY SINOWITZ: Excuse me, Mr. Hudak, while we're just doing that, if everybody who isn't being cross-examined or testifying, if they could just mute their microphones, I'm just getting an echo of Mr. Gasiorowski. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Okay. THE WITNESS: Okay. IT MODERATOR: How is that? 0--

23 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:00PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 THE WITNESS: Yeah, hold on just a second. I think that I had grabbed the wrong screen, so bear with me just for a second. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Andy, if you could use the microphone, please? THE WITNESS: Is the screen now visible? CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Yes. THE WITNESS: Okay. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. During our examination last we spoke in terms of discussing the basins in question. Now, there is, in fact, as I can see, a basin which is close to an adjacent parcel of land, and that would look to be on the -- sort of the bottom left-hand side of the -- can you point to that? Okay. It's the wet pond? There are two wet ponds, and can you just, if you would, tell me what -- north, south, east or west, what part of the property are they on, the wet ponds. A. Yes, let me zoom out so we can see north arrow. In general, north is up. There's the north arrow over in the left-hand corner (indicating), so north is generally 0--

24 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 up on this exhibit. Q. So it would be the southwest and southeast portion of the... A. Okay. Q. Now, with regard to the basins in question, is there any requirement in the Zoning Ordinance for a buffering adjacent to the basin? A. I don't believe there's a specific requirement for buffering of the basin. Q. Okay. Now, prior to designing the plan and while you were planning it, you received some guidance from, I think, the municipal engineer; did you not? A. We received review letters from the engineer and planner, the planning board engineer and the planning board planner. Q. Yes. Now, is any of that -- any of that basin -- strike that. Can you describe for me the nature of these basins? Are they detention basins or are they retention basins? A. I would define a wet pond as a retention basin because it holds water all the time. 0--

25 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 Q. Meaning retention, R-E-T, retention? A. That's correct. Q. Now, is there a provision there for any overflow, as to where that water would go once it overflows? A. Yes. These two wet ponds ultimately discharge into the infiltration basin northeast in this area right here (indicating) where my hand is. Q. So going from the southeast to the southwest, there are underground pipes or swales that would take it to that infiltration basin? A. Underground pipes, yes. Q. Okay. Thank you. Would any portion of the overreach or overflow or overcapacity of those two basins go onto the adjacent property which is not owned by the developer? A. No. Q. I thought in the testimony on page 0, and I asked you: "...the basins in question, they are detentions basins, I take it? " And your answer to that was: "Yeah." Y-E-A-H. 0--

26 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 Now, when I see that, where you said it was a detention basin, I think, at the prior hearing and you're now saying that it's a retention basin? A. No, there are -- there are different types of basins on the site. The wet ponds are the retention basins which hold water all the time, and then the infiltration basins are dry basins that allow the stormwater, as it comes into the basin to infiltrate into the ground. MR. TUVEL: I just want to note for the record, Mr. Chairman, these are the exact questions that were asked at the last meeting when Mr. Gasiorowski was cross-examining Ms. Galvin. MR. GASIOROWSKI: She -- CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Mr. Gasiorowski, we're reviewing the transcripts from the last meeting and you're rehashing the same questions. Can you please continue? And you asked for ten minutes on this recall of this witness. You have just gone over ten minutes. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Well, you know, look, this is a public hearing. I'm -- I'm going to be very brief. 0--

27 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. But I want to clarify one thing, I understand you're speaking of it being an infiltration basin, but my question is would the two wet ponds, as those ponds fill up, is the water detained there for a period of time and sent someplace else or is it retained there? A. The stormwater inflow to the wet ponds is detained there and the overflow for those ponds is piped to the infiltration basin. Q. Okay. Well, at page 0 when I pursued that question, you said that the waters infiltrate: "They infiltrate." "You mean they infiltrate beneath the floor of the basement..." And you said, "yes." "They soak into the ground..." Now, soaking into the ground is not the same as running it into the infiltration basin? A. The infiltration basins -- and there are three infiltration basins proposed; one right here, the small one along the property line over here, and another one over in the northwest corner (indicating). 0--

28 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 Those basins allow for infiltration of stormwater into the ground. Q. But what about -- what happens to the water that is in the wet ponds? That's my only question. A. The water -- there's a normal water surface in the wet ponds that are maintained -- that is maintained. When it rains and water flows into the wet ponds, the water surface rises up. When it gets to a certain elevation or -- and a certain volume, it discharges from the wet pond into a pipe that ultimately leads to the infiltration basin. So the wet ponds to provide a storage function for the stormwater inflow. Q. Does any of the water that's in the wet pond infiltrate into the ground and flow beneath the surface onto adjacent properties? A. No. Q. It does not? A. No. MR. TUVEL: Again, that was -- that just sequencing of questions was asked now, I think, three times. 0--

29 0:0PM MR. GASIOROWSKI: I have no further 0:0PM questions. 0:0PM I have no further questions of this 0:0PM witness. 0:0PM MR. GERTNER: No further questions, you 0:0PM said? 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 MR. GASIOROWSKI: No further questions of this witness. MR. GERTNER: If I may, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Tuvel, do you have any further redirect? MR. TUVEL: No. Ready to move onto the next. MR. GERTNER: Okay. Mr. Gasiorowski, you can have the next witness. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Well, let me ask you this now. In light of the comments that were made when I was addressing Ms. Galvin, am I to assume now that my -- counsel is objecting to my asking any further questions? MR. GERTNER: No, that's not what -- you're now -- it was only to Ms. Galvin, who we all perceived -- MR. GASIOROWSKI: All right. MR. GERTNER: -- her testimony as to you had been closed. 0--

30 0 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 So over the applicant's objection, the Chairman gave you some additional leeway to reopen. You did. You've now no further, Mr. Tuvel has no further. Next witness. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Well, having said that, my question is, can I ask redirect of both Mr. Rahenkamp and Mr. -- the other witness, I forget his name right now. MR. TUVEL: I would vociferously object to that. I mean, at the last meeting you said you were done with Mr. Rahenkamp. At the last meeting you specifically said you were done with Ms. Galvin. And now you want to get a second bite at the apple and I don't think that's appropriate. MR. GASIOROWSKI: I've been doing this for a long time, and if -- I mean, there are different ways, I will call, them witnesses, in some municipalities all of the witnesses are cross-examined at the end of all of the testimony. The reason for that is, is that there's sometimes overlapping testimony which you gather from different witnesses. 0--

31 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 And this is not a court of law, this is a hearing searching for what it's about. MR. GERTNER: So, Mr. Gasiorowski -- respectfully, Mr. Gasiorowski, ultimately it's the board's determination. You called -- you have had the opportunity to call witnesses, finish your cross-examination as in any sense of the word. Why don't you put on your entire cross-examination first, because there are remaining witnesses. Remember as well, and this is to both Mr. Gasiorowski and Mr. Tuvel, one of the reasons or another reason that your witnesses are available is that for those folks who are not represented by Mr. Gasiorowski or part of his family, so to speak, of representation, those members of the public may still have the opportunity to ask questions of those witnesses. So with all said, and, respectfully, through the Chair, and through the board, since we're -- since the board is attempting to manage this, my recommendation would be to move on to the next witness, and the next witness to whom you have not yet cross-examined. 0--

32 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 There will be ample opportunity for others, at least, to ask follow-up questions as well who have not yet had the opportunity to cross-examine. MR. GASIOROWSKI: My understanding, the only other witness that Mr. Tuvel called who gave testimony was Mr. Verderese. In other words, of those people I've cross-examined, it's only Mr. Verderese that I have not. Is that correct? MR. TUVEL: That's right, Ron. That's the only person you have not crossed. That's correct. MR. GERTNER: That's correct. MR. GASIOROWSKI: If I can, at this point in time, cross-examine Mr. Verderese, but I would also advise the board that based upon some of that testimony, I would request to call back Mr. Rahemkamp for brief recross. MR. TUVEL: I would object to that, but -- MR. GASIOROWSKI: That's okay. MR. GERTNER: The board could take that under advisement, but you could get your answers from 0--

33 0:0PM Mr. Verderese. 0:0PM MR. GASIOROWSKI: Good evening, 0:0PM Mr. Verderese. 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 MR. VERDERESE: How are you? MR. GERTNER: So, Mr. Verderese, you have been previously sworn, correct? MR. VERDERESE: Yes. N I C H O L A S V E R D E R E S E, P.E., having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: MR. GERTNER: Proceed. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Mr. Verderese, my understanding of it was, and I wasn't present for it, although I've looked at the transcript, you had been retained as the traffic consultant with regards to this project; have you not? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And traffic consultancy would also deal not only with just traffic flows, but also parking and questions related to parking and traffic flow; correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, were you present at the earlier 0--

34 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 testimony of witnesses, as well as my cross-examination of Mr. Rahenkamp? A. Yes. Q. Now, with regard to Jackson Township, are you familiar with what is the required right-of-way of public streets in the Township of Jackson? A. I am not. Q. Excuse me? You're not familiar with what the required right-of-way for streets in Jackson and you're the traffic consultant? A. Well, I am not familiar with Jackson's Ordinance. I am familiar with the Residential Site Improvement Standards that controls those items. Q. Under what code? A. Residential Site Improvement Standards. Q. Residential Site Improvement Standards call for a 0-foot right-of-way, does it not? A. For which type of roadway classification? Q. For a residential street, one-family residential. A. Fifty feet for a single-family residential, yes. Q. How about with regard to townhouses? 0--

35 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 A. There's all different widths based on the width of the road and the orientation of the parking. Q. With regard to this particular property and this particular project, did you review the Residential Site Improvement Standards for roadways and compare it with that which was provided in this particular claim? A. Yes. Q. Now, are you aware of the fact that when, in fact, there is a right-of-way of 0 feet, that while, in fact, while a project is being developed, it may, in fact, be owned by the developer, but upon the filing of the final map, the right-of-way becomes dedicated to the township in which the project is located; so when this map is filed, the right-of-way will be owned by the Township of Jackson, will it not? A. That's my understanding, yes. Q. Okay. So having said that, let's talk a bit about the testimony of Mr. Rahenkamp when he was dealing with parking. And we spent a lot of time talking about what was on-site, what was off-site and what was on-street. 0--

36 0:PM You're familiar with the term on-site, 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 are you not? A. Yes. Q. And that would comprise the entire site, including all of those properties contained within the parameters of the outbound surface? A. In my opinion, I would use the term on-site to be parking that is, for example, in a parking lot with a driveway to a street. Q. Okay. So you believe that -- you believe that -- well, I think perhaps I confused you in the manner in which I phrased the question. You would agree with me, would you not, that there can be on-street parking, correct? A. Correct. Q. And there can be on-site parking which might be on the street, but would also include parking in parking fields or parking lots that would be utilized by the developer? A. I didn't catch the second part of -- I got the on-street parking and then... Q. On-street parking would mean parking that was parking permitted on a dedicated street for public use owned by the municipality? A. Well, it wouldn't matter who owns it. 0--

37 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 If it's on the street, it's on the street. Ownership is inconsequential in my -- Q. Right. But when you file a map -- when you file a map showing the roadway, that is, in fact, property which then becomes under the ownership of the street; these are publicly-owned streets, these are not private streets, are they? A. Yes. Either way, whether it's public or private, from a traffic engineer standpoint, if it's on the street, it means you have to sit directly from the street. Q. Now, in this particular case -- MR. GERTNER: Mr. Gasiorowski, I am going to ask you to please keep your hands away from your face. It's affecting the sound that your microphone is picking up. So please, speak close to your microphone and speak clearly and keep your hands away from your face. Thank you. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. In this particular case you reviewed the traffic patterns, correct? 0--

38 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 A. Correct. Q. And you also reviewed the parking? A. Yes. Q. Now, were you present at the last hearing when there was a lot of back and forth between myself and Mr. Rahenkamp with regard to what would appear to be a hybrid of parking along the streets where there was head-on parking with 0-feet of the right-of-way being utilized for parking and then I believe eight feet of the property itself being used so that you would have a -foot parking stall with 0 feet of it being in the public roadway and feet of it being in the privately-owned property? A. Yes, I was here for the whole hearing. Q. Pardon me? A. I was here for the entire hearing, yes. Q. Well, I am not asking if you were here, I am asking you whether or not you remember that or recall that? A. I -- MR. TUVEL: Nick, before you respond, I just want to put one thing on the record again. The whole site is owned by the applicant. Mr. Gasiorowski is insinuating that we're 0--

39 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 doing something on municipal property, which we're not. I just want to make that clear. I had to do that at the last meeting. I wanted to make that clear again. MR. GASIOROWSKI: You know, I want to clarify that issue. And Mr. Tuvel is raising it. This is a site plan which clearly delineates the site improvements to the property. Part of those site improvements are the roadways, the curbing and the like. The plan shows a 0-foot right-of-way. That 0-foot right-of-way, at the conclusion of this case, will be dedicated to the township. Now, one of the arguments which I raised was that because the parking here is seeking a variance which was called for by the township engineer, that he should have gotten or they should have to get a consent and consent from the township to utilize a portion of that right-of-way as he is doing to create on parking. This is not on-street parking. This is a combination of on-street and on the applicant's property. So rather than having a parking lot on his property, he is seeking to utilize publicly-owned property so he gets a greater density of residential 0--

40 0 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 use on his property. And Mr. -- he's the traffic consultant, Mr. Verderese, and I'd like for him to explain to me where, in the Municipal Land Use Law, that is reflected as being permitted, if he can. CHAIRMAN HUDAK: Well -- MR. TUVEL: I don't think that's for a traffic engineer -- first of all, I just want to put on the record that, obviously, I disagree with your analysis there. I just wanted to let you finish. But I disagree with your analysis. And I don't think it is an appropriate question for Mr. Verderese, but if you have questions regarding the parking, the physical aspect of the parking or other areas of Mr. Verderese's expertise, he'd be happy to answer it. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Well, first of all, not only am I asking the question, but this was specifically raised in the reviews by, I believe, the municipal engineer and planner with concerns of this parking field, and they're saying specifically it calls for a variance. And particularly on page -- MR. TUVEL: Mr. Gasiorowski, Mr. Gasiorowski, we went through that at the last 0--

41 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 meeting and you questioned Mr. Rahenkamp on it. MR. GERTNER: No, no, no. Hang on. Now, Mr. Tuvel, excuse me. Through the Chairman again. All right? So we just had an argument, right, Mr. Tuvel, correct me if I'm wrong, about recalling other witnesses. He's allowed to ask witnesses questions. MR. TUVEL: Sure. MR. GERTNER: Okay? So, Mr. Gasiorowski, I'd ask you to rephrase this line of questioning, perhaps to lay some foundation, because the last question you asked had a whole -- had a lead-up of argument. So I think it would be better for the record to take a step back, lay some foundation towards your point. And to the extent Mr. Verderese can answer the questions, he'll answer them. He's certainly a professional. If he doesn't know the answer, he'll tell you. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Let me just say that it appears that Mr. Verderese on this occasion is both a gentleman and a professional, so... CHAIRMAN HUDAK: I can't hear a word 0--

42 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 you're saying, Mr. Gasiorowski. You're not speaking into your microphone. MR. GASIOROWSKI: Okay. THE WITNESS: He said I was a gentleman and a professional. I'd like to make sure that made the record. MR. GASIOROWSKI: I appreciate that. And I might want to speak more clearly into the microphone. Mr. Verderese and I have appeared many times. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. So I'm going to go to page, if I may, of the July st, 0, review letter. And it's also in the August of 00 review letter, but they say the same thing. If I may, I would like to -- MR. TUVEL: Ron, Ron, just so we're clear, which review letter are you referring to, just so we're clear? MR. GASIOROWSKI: I am going to July, 0. MR. GERTNER: Is that Mr. Peters' review letter? 0--

43 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM MR. GASIOROWSKI: Yes. MR. GERTNER: All right. MR. TUVEL: Okay. That is not his 0:PM latest letter. 0:PM MR. GASIOROWSKI: I'll get the latest 0:PM one. 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 Let's go to the letter dated August the 0th of 00. That is the most recent one that I have. MR. TUVEL: Okay. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Do you have it, Mr. Verderese? A. I do. Q. Let's go to page. And the second -- the second comment from the bottom of the page where it says: "Minimum parking setback from road or drive aisle.?" Do you see that? A. I do. Q. And do you see where it says: "Under the ordinance, feet is required." A. I do. Q. And what is proposed is parking within 0--

44 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 the right-of-way, and the comment is that a variance is required for that. Do you see that? A. I do. Q. Now, as a traffic consultant, this is a comment which reflects specifically upon the area of expertise for which you're testifying, does it not? A. Somewhat. Q. Well, it's dealing with parking, and you're an expert supposedly in parking and setbacks and the like. You see where -- A. Where the right-of-way line lands is -- Q. What? A. Where the right-of-way line lands is inconsequential to the traffic engineer's review of roadways and parking and circulation and safety. Q. Would you repeat that? I didn't quite catch that? A. Where the right-of-way is, whether it's behind the curb or through the parking space, it doesn't change what the traffic engineer reviews, which is the design of the parking space and the design of the roadways and the safety. Q. Okay. Well, did you review the design 0--

45 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 of these parking spaces and the design of the roadway? A. Yes. Q. And would you agree with me that with regard to this particular design, 0 feet of these head-on parking spaces in the right-of-way and feet of it is within the privately-owned property of the applicant, correct? A. Correct. Q. Would you agree with the borough engineer that in order to do that, that requires a variance? A. I would -- MR. TUVEL: I would say he's not a planner, that's not -- he's a traffic engineer. MR. GASIOROWSKI: He's a traffic engineer, but he's dealing specifically with a parking problem and he's part of designing the parking spaces and the road layout for this property. And are you telling me that he specifically designed the parking spaces that requires a variance? THE WITNESS: As far as traffic goes, a variance means nothing to go me as far as what I am reviewing, and I am reviewing the safety of the 0--

46 0:PM roadway. 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 Whether there is a line that runs through the parking spaces, it means nothing -- if it was -- if this was -- if the line was somewhere else it wouldn't change my opinion on the safety and circulation of the property. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Look, design -- part of your expertise as a traffic consultant is designing parking areas located within the site, is it not? A. Yes. Q. So if you were to design a parking area that might encompass a parking field of 0 cars in the center of the site, you would also review the design of the roadway, the private roadway, leading to that parking lot, and they would be a purely private parking lot, correct? A. Yes,. I would review the roadways and the parking. Yes. Q. Now, here you're part of a design team. You personally are part of the design team that has proposed a parking area, two-thirds of which is made up of a public road and one-third of which is made up of privately-owned property. 0--

47 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 And a variance is required for that. And I want you to tell me, as a traffic consultant, the basis this board might have for the granting of that variance, if you can. A. Yeah, my opinion is that they could grant a variance because it's just a line on a piece of paper and it doesn't impact the safety of the roadway. There could be other outside of the traffic engineering realm that you want to argue, but from a traffic engineer standpoint, the design of the parking spaces is the same whether the right-of-way line runs through the space, is in front of the space, is behind the space. Q. But would you agree with me that you could not have head-on parking unless you utilized the privately-owned property? A. Well, that is what we've proposed, and we're asking for a de minimus exception from RSIS for it. Q. And all I'm asking for you is to give to me the basis for that variance, the basis for that exception. What justifies it? MR. TUVEL: Nick, I think you just did that, but if you want to repeat it

48 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 MR. GASIOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, this is really an answer and, you know, if he's looking to help him with it, then I'll cross-examine the attorney. Let him just answer the question? THE WITNESS: Ron, you know I'm not looking to the attorney to answer my question. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Well, then, answer it. A. I will. I answered it once, so I'll answer it again. The line of the right-of-way is of no substance to the design of the roadway from a safety standpoint from my experience as a traffic engineer, and that's all I can do. I can't talk about setbacks to buildings and other items that you might want to take to the planner or the engineer about, but from a traffic standpoint there's a road and a parking space and it meets all the design standards. Q. Let me ask you this question. And, you know, just from my own personal observations, whenever I'm driving along a public street, a public street where there's a -- I don't know what the 0--

49 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0:0PM 0 0 parking speed would be, miles an hour, whatever it may be, in most instances where I have seen cars parking head-on to a curb, it's angled parking, and yet these particular parking spots are not, you know, head-on. A. Yes, they meet the standard, the RSIS. They have -- RSIS allows all different types of angles, angles and perpendicular and parallel. So this is one of the items in there that you're allowed to design for and this is the one that was chosen. Q. On a public roadway? A. Correct. Q. Thank you. Now, could not, in fact, all of this parking be located on the property which is privately-owned by the developer? A. You're kind of just asking me the same thing in a roundabout way. What we have designed as far as roads and parking meet all the standards required in RSIS for the design of a road and parking. The only issue that I am hearing come up over and over is where the right-of-way line lands, and that's of no consequence to the safety of 0--

50 0 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 the road and the parking. Q. Do you know or can you opine as to whether or got this particular design, because the property is owned by someone else, would have to have the municipality join in this application? MR. TUVEL: That's a legal question. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. If it were necessary at a later date to widen this roadway, how could that be possible if, in fact, you've got cars parked there? MR. TUVEL: Ron, can you repeat the question? It was kind of fuzzy. BY MR. GASIOROWSKI: Q. Would you agree with me that the reason for a right-of-way being 0 feet is for the governing body, the municipality, to utilize that property? A. I don't know that I quite understand "to utilize the property." Which property? Q. The publicly-owned property, the right-of-way. A. Well, yeah, everything in the right-of-way is being used by the municipality ultimately. 0--

51 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0:PM 0 0 Q. It's supposed to be controlled by the municipality. Do you know whether or not this developer has entered into any kind of an agreement with the municipality where they could utilize, they could utilize that publicly-owned property for private parking? A. I am not aware. Q. I just have a few more questions. As a part of your expertise, you also deal with whether or not a design satisfies the required parking spaces for the site, does it not? A. If you're referring to the number of parking spaces, yes. Q. Yes. A. Okay. Yes. Q. Now, with regard to this particular application, does the plan provide for a sufficient number of parking spaces which are completely on the site without the utilization of the property owned by the municipality for private parking? MR. TUVEL: I'm going to object again that there is nothing owned by the municipality on this property, but I'll let him answer the question. MR. GASIOROWSKI: The township's going 0--

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