DIVORCE LAWYER JEREMY SUTTON ON CHILD SUPPORT WITH KARYN HAY

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1 DIVORCE LAWYER JEREMY SUTTON ON CHILD SUPPORT WITH KARYN HAY Very good thanks very much. Hi and good evening and we'll kick straight into it with your law tonight with Jeremy Sutton who is a family law specialist and good evening Jeremy, how are you? Hi Karyn, good thanks, how are you? Good to see you here again. Good to be back. Okay so we've talked Jeremy, straight into it because I know this is, these answers people are desperately requiring some assistance when it comes to divorce which we've talked about and we've talked about property rights on the times that you have been on the show and tonight we're going to talk about child support. So if this is something that effects you, here at Radio Live because Jeremy is here for the next hour as he is every bi-weekly on a Wednesday, that sounds right doesn't it? Yep, that's right, you got it right. And tonight's question is about, questions and answers are about child support so let's just start off with an easy question and child support can be owed by both a mother and/or a father, can't it? I mean, you don't have to be, it's not just from one parent, it's not a father who always has to pay child support?

2 No it's not. That's quite right. Child support is really a payment from one parent to another in respect of a child who is normally under the age of 19 years old. 19? I didn't know that, right up to the age of 19? Up to the age of 19. Gosh, okay so we've gone through divorce and [00:01:34 inaudible] having all the paperwork, the legal requirements for the divorce. Then, if you have children, this is the painful part of a relationship breakup, well, one of them isn't it? Yeah, it's a painful part for a lot of people because they, people think they're getting a clean break from the relationship but in fact there's this ongoing financial support that they may need to give or may need to receive for a long long time after that. And so for example, if a child is 8, then they've got many many years of child support to pay. That's if they're working, is that right? I mean, what are the rules regarding child support? And this will be child support 101 for those of you who are paying it and have queries that you'd like to talk to Jeremy about. If you have any specific questions about child support issues that you might have, He's here for an hour, take advantage of him, it's your time, question and answer session, and I'm just starting it off here but for example, if someone is a working mother and both parents are working, is it, it's the one that's not looking after the children? Explain to me how it goes? Yes. So how it generally goes is that the parent who is working perhaps more and looking after the child less, is the one that's paying child support. So and that would depend on how much the time that is had, for example, if the parent is only seeing

3 the child for one night a week, they would be paying more than a parent that is seeing the child say three nights a week. Oh, okay, because the other extra two nights, they are providing a roof over their head, food. Yep. All the rest of it. So that's included in that calculation and there's two ways of paying child support. It can either be done through the IRD or it can be done privately so either the parents can, perhaps not be getting on that well at all so one parent says, or they both agree, we're going through the IRD. Or the parents are getting on quite well and they have a verbal or written agreement that they pay a certain amount of child support and it's really calculated mainly on how many children there are going to be and what the incomes of both the parents are. Okay so if you're not, if your relationship split isn't amicable, then you go to somebody like you, and one party would because it's unlikely that you'd go together and say, "What are my rights around child support? How much given my income would I be paying? How do I pay this? Who do I pay it too?" And your advice would be to do this well in advance of splitting up? Yeah well we often Karyn get people to come and see us in what we call a preseparation consultation. So they come in and say, "Look, I think we might be separating. If we are, tell me what my financial position is going to look like afterwards." And then we'll go through, say the person has two children, then generally they'll pay 24% of their income up to a certain amount of that on child

4 support. So say the person is earning 100,000, there are two children, they'll generally be seeing the, they'll generally be paying 24,000 a year or about 500 per week which is a significant portion of someone's income obviously and a lot of people are just horrified at the continuing financial obligations they have after separation and after all the property stuff has been resolved. Of course, but then when you look at $500 a week for two children, that's not really a lot of money. No, it doesn't go that far either. So it works both ways, yeah. When it comes to how much it costs to house, feed, clothe, school a child, it's expensive business. Yeah. Unless you've got that wider support system. I know, it's very hard and perhaps some parents that haven't spent so much time with the children don't realise how much it in fact costs to pay school fees, clothing, sports, now that's a major one each term. That can all mount up so it's quite a complicated equation and it's quite hard for people to get to grips with. Okay so that's just an overview, that's child support 101. But in terms of your office, coming to see Jeremy Sutton, New Zealand divorce, that's what it says in your website, you have everything, you've got a one-stop shop basically in regard to all of the processes and the legalities required by both parties.

5 Yeah. So, in terms of people coming to see you about child support, somebody walking through your door, what might be one of the most common problems that they have that they need to consult you about? Well, they may feel that the amount of child support they're paying is just too much. They can't afford, or they don't think it's reasonable because perhaps when the existing arrangements were there, things have changed so that's one aspect. Secondly, they may just have a huge arrears of child support. Some people may have 20, 30 or 40,000 in arrears of child support and sometimes arrears on a student loan and they're looking to have some settlement, some sort of lump sum settlement with IRD with the other parent for that. Was there something in the law just recently regarding child support wasn't it? The amnesty or the dropping of? Yes, there was something about the dropping of penalties for child support so I mean, this is in the area that is quite complicated. The law is very hard to read and so I would urge people if they want free advice for example, they could contact IRD and they could get free advice there, they can go to their local community law centre, or of course they can come to us but I accept that people don't want to often pay for a lawyer for something like child support. So there's a lot of information on the web and from people for child support but it is very hard to navigate your way through it unfortunately because there are so many different, Karyn, there are so many different complications and ways that are can actually work. Understood. And if you're one of those people that is embroiled in one of those complications that Jeremy is talking about, he's here til 9 o'clock. He's free, he's all

6 yours until 9. He's free tonight, he's not charging a bean if you'd like to ask Jeremy a question about your child support, any issues you might have. Hi Steve. Steve: Yeah hi darling, I have a couple of questions for him. Hi Steve. Steve: Hi, how are you going? My question is, if my partner goes off the benefits and she starts working, why does the child support keep getting paid? Yes, are we talking about a private arrangement or through IRD? Steve: At the moment it's through IRD, but like she's going to be going off the benefits shortly, she told me she's got a job. Do I carry on paying child support right through until my children are 19? You do, yeah, you do. So what will happen is if she's going off the benefit, let's say, let's say IRD were collecting $450 a week previously, and she was getting $400 on the benefit, she would only get $50. Steve: I see, and I still keep paying that $450 though? Yeah, you still keep paying the $450, yep. Steve:

7 Okay, and another question, how come with the IRD, so I've split up and I've got 3 children to a previous relationship, and now I've got 2 new children, like 2 young children, a 3 year old and a 1 year old and my partner is not supported by me anymore under the new rules, is that correct? That's correct. Steve: How is she supposed to support herself? Ah, well, that's a good question. I mean one of the problems under the new rules is probably the biggest issue is your living allowance is not being adjusted to reflect that you're helping to look after them. Steve: Yes, that's what's happened now, my living allowance has been cut back to just me and looking after two children but my partner is now at home looking after the two children. Yeah, see that's not good, that's not a good situation to be in. I mean you do have the option of applying for administrative review through IRD so that's probably the way I'd go. Steve: Okay, just seems a bit tough at the moment. And if you're not sure about that, then I'm not sure where you're living but you could contact your local community law centre and they'll be able to give you some free advice and advocacy to help you with that. Steve:

8 Oh okay then. Yep. Steve: Okay, thanks for that. I'll be in contact with one of them to find a bit more information. Thanks Steve, thanks. Cheers. Steve: Bye. Okay, it's your family law, your law tonight with Jeremy Sutton. We're talking child support and any questions that you might have around child support that you're paying, that you are, that's projected that you're going to pay and that might just be a plan that you have in regard to a divorce and you're thinking, "How am I going to earn enough money or where's the money going to come from to support my children?" And in terms of other issues Jeremy in your office that, it seems to me that it's always about paying too much, too much child support. Yeah, that's one, that's one issue, too much child support or concern perhaps that they're paying child support and where's the money going? Is it going to my children or not? Is it going somewhere else? Is it going on their shopping needs or some other issue? You can't monitor that though can you?

9 No, you can't, that's up to the other parent to decide as to how to spend the money but people sometimes do feel a sense of frustration that they can't be sure that the money that they're giving to the other parent is necessarily going to a child's needs. So I suppose it's a bit of let off steam and yeah. Venting? Yeah, and venting, yeah. Alright. You can vent tonight with Jeremy Sutton and your law, Calls are free and Jeremy's time is free until 9 o'clock. It's 19 after 8. Voiceover: It's Karyn Hay. 22 minutes after 8, your law with Jeremy Sutton, talking child support tonight. Hi John. John: Hey, evening Karyn. Okay mate, I got [00:12:23 inaudible] 1st of May. Yeah. John: So I owe 297 by the end of May. Yeah. John:

10 By the end of May, $1000. Now, I have no idea how that accumulated. I once called them before, they told me that my employer has paid for my wages late so they get, I don't think it's running late, so then they have to do another reassessment and they said I'll probably get penalised but I'm trying to work out $700 by the end of one month, I mean had I not even enquired it would've been in the thousands by the end of the year. What alludes me is they're putting the payment plan to pay this $1000 but I can't get over, well if it was only $297, or 96, why didn't they put a payment plan in it from there? Why did they wait so long? 'Cos you tell me you have no idea why. Yeah, good question. I'm not with the IRD so I don't know what their particular systems are John, but it seems to me that you need to get on the phone to them tomorrow and talk to IRD and just sort it all out. Sometimes there is a bit of a discretion. In your case, you don't want it ballooning from the $297 to $1000, that doesn't look like a good outcome at all does it? John: Ah, no. I don't mind paying maintenance for my little girl, I've got no problems with that. I'll pay anything they want, well, I haven't got a choice. But I just can't figure out how even a hundred was added onto that and in a month it's ludicrous what I owe, I thought you might have an idea where that is, you know, have you got any idea where the extra may have come from? Well, there might be penalties or overdue amount. I think the two stages that I recommend are one; call the IRD in the morning. There's an 0800 number there. John: Yeah, I know it. You know that number. And two, if you have no luck and it's all too hard, then ring your nearest community law centre and they'll be able to call IRD on your behalf. You'll need to fill out a piece of paper but it won't be any cost and then you

11 should be able to work through it in those two avenues but I'm really sorry but it does sometimes happen. It's a big bureaucratic organisation, it's very frustrating so just work through it and you should be able to sort it out John. John: Oh cool, thanks for your time, thank you very much. Jeremy & Thanks John, Cheers. So, phone call into the IRD. Hamish, hi. Hamish: Hi, how's it going? Good Hamish, how are you? Hamish: Not too bad. I just have a question for Jeremy. Hi Hamish. Hamish: I'm currently paying child support and my ex had a death in the family so she went back overseas. I agreed to let her go over there and she took the wee child over there, over to the United Kingdom. And once she got over there she cut all contact and has not got back in touch with me since but um, I'm still paying child support over here on top of it as well. I'm just wondering what's your advice to someone I can go to or what avenues I can look for? So you don't know where she and the child are?

12 Hamish: Not exactly, no. I just know that they're in England somewhere. Yeah, and how long has it been? Hamish: About 8 months now. Well the obligation to pay child support continues whether or not you're seeing the child but it doesn't seem very fair to me what's going on so. Hamish: Especially with her overseas. Yeah, I'd be recording your protest with IRD now and seeing where you can get with things. Hamish: Okay, I'll speak to the IRD and just go from there. Yeah, just go from there and make sure that you send them an so that you've got something in writing on your file. But I can't think of a specific instance exactly like this, but I'm sure there have been ones and it doesn't seem to be very fair that you're having to pay if the child's been shielded away because there's probably another issue in there isn't there about whether she's trying to keep the child in the UK permanently. Hamish:

13 Yeah, I'm not sure. Beforehand everything was okay. I had her on weekends but she had a death so I said, "Okay, you go over there". Obviously a death is a death. And yeah, then all of a sudden stayed over there and never got back in touch. Yeah because if she stays over there for too long then you'll have issues about what we call habitual residence which is about the country the child normally lives in. So I would've thought it's probably worth seeing a lawyer about you know, near where you live, a specialist in the area in family just about that particular area as well and perhaps make some investigations as to where she and the child are. Hamish: Okay. Sorry Hamish, I missed when you said that they went, when was that? Hamish: It was about 8 months ago. 8 months ago, so habitual residence would kick in for a child because you're live, not live but you're able to get child support in the UK of course. Yes, it's just my concern for Hamish, and I know it wasn't your question, is just around whether by allowing her and the child to remain in the UK for a decent period of time, you're what we call at quiescence or agreeing with her to stay in the UK on a more permanent basis. Hamish: I see, yep.

14 And you might not want to do that. But, but certainly in relation to the child support, I'd contact, I'd contact IRD in the first instance and see what they've got to say about it. Hamish: Cool, okay, thank you. Very good Hamish, good luck. Thanks Hamish. Cheers, bye. Yes, 8 months is a long time and after 8 months you'd be thinking, hmm, not coming back. You would. You'd be thinking, "What's going on here?" You'd need to make some further enquiries. And the thing is that it's sometimes easier to do nothing but it's not always the best course of action is it? If you just think, "Well, I'll just wait and see for a little while longer", in a circumstance like that and you can really get yourself into hot water if you don't know what those, for example, what habitual residence in terms of a timeframe is because there are definite cut-off dates and times to be working towards for the other party aren't there? Totally, and there is avenues open to you. If you don't want to go and see a lawyer, then you could go to the citizen's advice bureau, they have [00:19:24 inaudible] sessions for quarter of an hour, half an hour for free. You can go to a community law centre, there's the ministry of justice website which is very good. So people do need to be careful that by doing nothing, they're agreeing really.

15 Right, by doing nothing, they're agreeing. Yeah. They could be seeing to be agreeing. Well that's a trap. If you don't know what the law is, if you think that, "Well there'll be no penalty for this", as in because you don't know there's going to be a penalty, there's going to be a penalty so therefore it pays to be informed completely informed about your options. Yeah it does Karyn. It pays to know you know, what the position might be just as you'd go to a doctor for a regular check-up, people often come to a lawyer and just have a series of questions, what if here, what if there, and just feel better informed about it. Very wise. And with Google of course, people can do their own research, lots of people come to us you know having researched things for 4 or 5 hours. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad because anyone can place information on Google. Oh alright, okay well we'll come back to that. We've got a news update with [00:20:29 inaudible]. Voiceover: Radio Live news update. The weather could be a record-breaker. The southern city is on track to record its highest ever daily rainfall, about 132mm have fallen by 7 tonight. The record of 137mm was set in April, A political bomb has been

16 dropped with the Labour party with the review of its dismal election result last year prematurely released. Sid [00:20:56 inaudible] has stepped down from football's governing body this morning, just 4 days after being re-elected as president for a further term. And the latest version of Microsoft's Windows operating system will be available on July 29th for computer and tablet users. I'll have more on those stories and others at 9. Thank you very much. It's your law tonight with Jeremy Sutton and family law and we're talking about child support so if this is something that effects you, you've got a question, and this is a free call obviously, free advice, this is Jeremy's specialist subject so he can help you on any range of questions in relation to child support is the number here and he's available til 9 o'clock. Araj hello. Are you there Araj? Araj: Yep. Hi, how are you? Araj: I'm good good. Just want to talk about the child support. Yes. Araj: How much are you supposed to pay? Like is there, like last year I was paying $180 per child a week and this year has gone down to $166. Yeah, that's good isn't it? Araj:

17 Yeah, I just [00:22:11 inaudible] is there so much you're supposed to pay or? Are you paying through IRD are you? Are you there Araj? I think he's just lost the signal. I'll put you on hold Araj and Jade can probably find you again and we'll come back to your question. G'day Joseph. Hi Joseph. Hey. Hi Joseph. Hi, Jeremy here. You're on. Yeah, I'm on. Where are you going? Yeah. I'm paying like $375 a month, a year, a week. You're paying $75 a week? No, 375 a week.

18 For how many children? Two children. Two, okay. Alright Jeremy and what's your question for Jeremy, Joseph? Why am I paying that because my wife earns more than me? She's a nurse and I didn't get her from the house. She asked to get out of the house and now she is charging the parents 75 but now I don't have any money for my accommodation, I'm living alone and I reckon she also takes like a [00:23:42 inaudible] or what do they call it, family? Family support, yep. Yep, I think she gets that as well. Yep. Why am [00:23:53 inaudible]? You think it doesn't seem right that you're having to pay so much when she's earning more than you, is that right? Is that one of the things? Yeah, yeah.

19 And, has she got the two children most of the time or not? No, she has most of the time but I see them on a Saturday and Sunday [00:24:14 inaudible]. Yeah. Well, that is very difficult, that's a very difficult situation that you're in. Do you have them two nights a week do you, or not? No, but the kids, I can call them, I can speak to them. Yeah, do you have the kids overnight or just during the day on Saturday and? Sometimes I have them, sometimes I don't have. Yeah. So has your payment of 375, has it been the same over the past year or has it changed? No, it's changed. Before it used to be 270, now it's changed because I defaulted for a long time because I changed my companies. Right, yep. Yeah, and she earns more than me. Yep.

20 But I didn't walk away from the home, she's the one that moved me out of the home. Yeah. So it's very difficult you know. I am starting to [00:25:18 inaudible] and I thought I'll kill myself. But for my kids, my father and my daughter says, "Dad, don't do that". Good on them. How old are they Joseph? My daughter is like, she's 18 and my son is like and 14. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt Jeremy. Have you expressed that to them? That you've felt suicidal? Yeah, I told them. I told them because I got the letter from the IRD that said you have to pay this much and I said to my kids, "Tell dear mummy that I can't pay this, but I'll pay you $200 a week which I can afford to". And hopefully my kids has spoken to her mother and she says now [00:26:20 inaudible]. That's her [00:26:23 inaudible]. It hurts me more, I don't get. I have [00:26:33 inaudible] but I still love my wife.

21 Would it help if I referred you to a support agency, we could deal with [00:26:44 inaudible] for you? We can just take your number. Joseph, Jeremy is just saying, would you like some help and we could take your number? I need help. Yeah, we'll get you some help. We'll get you [00:27:01 inaudible] you can talk to. [00:27:05 inaudible]. Yeah, you hang in there Joseph and we'll get you some people that you can contact or that will contact you, okay? So what to do now is don't hang up, and I'll put you back to Jade, Joseph. And if you give Jade you phone number, then Jeremy will contact you after the show tonight. Yeah, I will. Would that be helpful for you? Yes, that will be helpful you know.

22 Where are you at the moment? [00:27:39 inaudible]. Where are you at the moment Joseph? [00:27:42 inaudible] and just living alone and I love my wife, I love my kids. Karyn & [00:27:50 inaudible] Okay Joseph hang on, hang on and I'm going to put you to Jade. You hang in there Joseph. And good on you for ringing. It's brave to ring. Thanks for ringing Joseph. Don't hang up. There we go. That's the pain that this causes. We've talked divorce and property relationship settlement and then you get the, this is the end of it and the reality of it. It's an incredibly stressful and difficult time and people do need support, family, friends, professional support to get, to get through this and people tend to forget

23 that it's not just the point of separation, it's after that and coping with the fact that they're not going to see their children every night, that they have these financial struggles, these financial worries, because not all people can afford to pay what's required by IRD, it's just an arbitrary figure and yeah, it's, it's really important that everyone out there knows that if they have friends or families that are going through this, they will need extra help. It's 21 minutes to 9, and Jeremy will talk to Joseph after the show so as he said, hang in there Joseph and if you have a question that you'd like to ask Jeremy, Voiceover: Karyn Hay. You're listening to Radio Live [00:29:23 inaudible - problem with audio recording for 30 seconds] We're talking your law tonight and that was somebody who is at the painful end of a separation and divorce and paying child support but that wasn't the key issue. It wasn't really the money, it was still having the emotional bond with his children and his wife so it's an area fraught with difficulty isn't it? Oh it is. It's huge challenges in that area and it's just continuous, it's not just at the point of separation but it goes on for a lifetime for people. Yeah, it's really really hard. G'day Aidan. Aidan: Yeah, how are you going Karyn? Good thanks Aidan, how are you?

24 Aidan: Good, good. Hey just briefly, I completely understand where that last guy is coming from and it is just as much a financial thing as anything because this is been my situation but also you talk to a lot of other people and very similar stories and not only you've had to leave the family home and the children and absolutely everything else like that and start again. But the amount that you have to pay in child support in many cases means that there's guys out there living in the cars now and things like that. I had to do it myself for ten weeks because you simply can't pay that child support and live yourself and get on with life. It's crazy how they calculate it and what have you and yeah, it just doesn't seem to make sense a lot of it. So it is dealing with that 'cause it's one thing to have to get over what you've just left behind, but also trying to get on with your own life and still just having this thing just pulling you down, it's not easy. So what advice would you have Aidan for people? Jeremy here. Aidan: Well, I don't know because I'm still working it out myself mate you know, and it's not easy. You do, I wouldn't go that far but you do start to say to yourself you know, I can see why people top themselves now. Or I can see why dads just go overseas to some place and never ever come back again. And it is honestly, it is, the financial restrictions are incredible, how they calculate it is incredible and it is unfair. And because I know what my wife, my ex-wife whatever you say now, is receiving and I know how much I'm paying, I'm paying for more than just three children and yeah, it's pretty tricky hey. I'm basically working hours a week now and I've got nothing. I've got nothing to get by on. Yeah. So, one agency that I recommended to some fathers is the Father and Child Trust. And they're based in [00:32:40 inaudible]. They've got a Facebook page as well and the main person to contact there is Brendan Smith. Their number is

25 Aidan: Yep. Can I interrupt? You're [00:32:55 inaudible] aren't you Aidan? Aidan: Yeah. I mean for me personally it's not a bit ongoing thing. I'm just sorting it out and getting through it. I realise it's just what I've got to do, you've got to get on with it. Yeah. Aidan: So I mean, I don't need [00:33:08 inaudible], I'm over the stress of all of that, it's still annoying. Yeah. It's just that you've got nothing left to live on. Aidan: Oh no, basically nothing. No, no. And I mean, one thing I don't get, if you can answer this, it's based on a percentage. So if for example, say the person next door is doing their job a week is I don't know, low, minimum wage, they make $500 a week. Yeah. Aidan: And the guy up the road, the lawyer, and he's making his $ a week, based on a percentage, their children, both lots of children, you can't tell me the lawyer's

26 children are worth two or three times as much as the one to raise each week. If that makes sense to you. Yeah, I see where you're coming from, yep, so? Aidan: So the person on the lower wage might be only paying $200 a week in child support for their child, but the lawyer might be paying $7-800 a week for child support. The children aren't worth that much difference in money. Yeah. There is a cap on the amount of child, on the income for child support. Aidan: Yep. So. Aidan: There's a lot of flaws in it. Yeah. Aidan: And it's a lot harder than, people that aren't actually in this situation, I don't think they realise how difficult it really is and it really, it is unfair but you know, like anything, you can't fight it, you've just got to get on with it. Have you tried to administratively review the child support at all? Aidan:

27 I'm starting to go through a process of that now. Yeah. Aidan: You know, and. The thing is there's an option for people, that is a possibility that we've got to give people out there who find the amount they're paying is too much. Aidan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Aidan: But I mean, yeah, [00:34:52 inaudible] thinking almost every father out there that you can go and do that and get administrative review. I mean, that's going to mean everyone's [00:35:03 clammering] to do it. They're just going to have to start to change the way they do things. Yeah. Yeah. Very good Aidan, thank you for your call and good luck. Aidan: No problem. Thanks Aidan.

28 Thank you. And thanks for your texts and s too. This text says, "It infuriates me that when I have my children for weeks in the holidays I still have to pay her $250 a week. Why?" Why Karyn, because the child support is calculated over the whole year. And so even though it does seem unjust that the person has the children for say two weeks in the holidays, that obligation still remains and that time. But having said that, the new child support update if you like from the 1st of April has meant that there's been a reduction in child support for lots of fathers, for lots of paying parents. So that has you know, that has helped some people. It has comforted people to some extent because previously you had to be, the children had to be with you for three nights a week for you to get a reduction, now that's only two nights a week. So it used to be, yeah, used to have to be with them almost half the time and now it's less than that. I see, I understand, okay. And text from Joseph, "Joseph, you're not alone mate. A lot of guys including myself are in this situation. It takes time, but it does get easier. Don't give up man." So that was the, that was for Joseph and Jeremy's number in terms of your phone number Jeremy, what's yours? Jeremy Sutton. Oh, my phone number is is the number here at Radio Live. It's 10 to 9.

29 It's 6 minutes away from 9 on Radio Live and just with Jeremy Sutton from your law. Not just with, but we're just chatting is what I meant to say about phone numbers and just to make sure that Joseph, you do have that phone number, it is , Jeremy Sutton and Jeremy has got a call on his phone so hopefully that's you that's calling. And for anyone else listening, that's Jeremy's, goes through to his office, onto his smart phone that he has there. And he'll be able to get back to you. G'day Lars. Lars: Yeah receiving. Receiving, over. Lars: Receiving. Yeah, hi Karyn and hi to Jeremy. Hi Lars, how you going? Lars: Yeah not bad, yeah. Just another one of these guys in the same boat doing around the 60 hours a week to try to get ahead again, try to see a light at the end of the tunnel one day. Yeah. Lars: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel for those last two callers. Yeah, they were pretty much, there is a light at the end of the tunnel but it is yeah, it can be very difficult for the male, the way the IRD are set up, it's for the male to fail pretty much. It sounds negative, but it's what most of the guys I've talked to, they've sort of been in the same boat too.

30 Male to fail. Sorry to interrupt you there but is that, I'm interested in why there aren't, or any tonight, women ringing? Is it mostly a male? Lars: Oh they're probably sitting back on the turps wouldn't they? [00:38:41 inaudible]. Jeremy is snickering. Lars: Don't you shut me off, don't you shut me off Karyn. I'm not. Jeremy's snickering. So, Lars: I'm not venting yet because if I did I'd start swearing so I won't go down that track but um, there is a lot of other women out there that are in the same boat as we are too. I know one lady and she's got five kids and she's pretty much brought them all up herself and she doesn't even really get child support off the father. So it's not just the male point of view, there is a lot of females in the same boat as us too. But it comes down to the system as well too I suppose. It's a hard one really but like usually if they send you out a form when you're starting to pay child support and it's basically, this is your living allowance and it's $300 a week, $15,000 a year and then they want me to pay all the extra on child support. It just doesn't seem fair really, ey? Especially if you're having the children as well. Are you there? Yeah, we're listening. Lars: It's a bit to throw at you.

31 So what would be fair then? Lars: Well, it should go off both incomes and depend, well I know they've just changed the rules since the 1st of April where you only have to have your children for two nights to make it a bit more fairer if you're the paying parent. Because when I was three nights, there was absolutely no way [00:40:11 inaudible] could have the children for three days. You're not in a relationship anymore and you're working a full-time job and you've got to take your kids to school on Monday and be at work at 8 o'clock. It just wouldn't work, would it? Very difficult, that's right. Lars: I've managed to do it though. [00:40:28 inaudible] tankers for a while but that was the most hardest one to do because that was three days, three nights and three off and juggling to have my daughter on those three days off yeah, it was hard going. But, yeah, have you got time for another quickly question then? Yeah, that's fine, go for it. Lars: Right, the situation is now yeah, forgive the ones you can't, you've got to let it go and that's probably what most guys need to try to look at doing. It's easy to say but very hard to do and it's probably always going to have arguments and stuff as it goes along with your partners but that's just life I suppose. But the situation I've got now, her mother is going to be finishing work in the next week or two because she's a seasonal worker but she's living in a relationship with a new guy now so, and she's saying she's going to get a benefit, I don't know like a combined benefit but if you, if she's in a relationship with another male and living together, then she wouldn't be entitled to that would she? If she's in a relationship?

32 Are you talking about a domestic purposes benefit or something like that? Lars: Oh, any benefit, because I know when I was with her and she wasn't working, she couldn't get the dole or anything because I was working. Yeah, you'd need to check with work and income about that, that's not my area. Lars: Oh okay, what area is yours? Well, that's not a child support issue so much. That's also a work and income issue as well. Lars: Okay, yeah. So, I'm not an expert on work and income in terms of benefit entitlements. Thanks Lars and Jeremy, we've run out of time. We're coming up to 9 o'clock. There are several more calls but maybe I can handle them on my own after 9 o'clock. Thanks very much Jeremy Sutton. Thanks Karyn. I appreciate it, see you in two weeks time. See you in two weeks, thanks.

33

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